Low Cost VOIP Providers

The only notebook power supply brick I ever destroyed was when I put it on a modified sine wave inverter. Those things are just shit cubed.

I keep my notebooks way longer than most people because I dual boot and don't want to go through the pain of setting things up. I kept the last one for 8 years.

This sounds like WISP, though I find the links in the 2.4G range. I have some 900MHz spread spectrum backhaul gear, but damn slow.

Satellite VOIP will be terrible. Consider the latency.

Welcome to 2013. Wild Blue, Exede, ViaSat (same company) sell VoIP via Ka band satellite internet.

If you watch the video, notice the 1 second pause between

I just happened to just finish running a test with a friend via Exede. He was getting 9 Mbits/sec download speed via Speedtest.net. Not so great on the upload at 1.5 Mbits/sec. Looks like I'll have to do a dish alignment (again).

He just installed the VoIP service, so I did some testing. I had him call me on the Exede VoIP phone and with Skype at the same time. I wanted to see if the VoIP traffic had priority. Yes, it did by quite a margin. My guess(tm) was that Skype was about 0.5 to 1 second slower which suggests that Exede is giving their VoIP packets priority. Both had about a noticeable delay with a little garble from lost packets and compression. Quality was quite good and far from your "terrible". It also seemed to be switching between full and half duplex audio when there was no audio in one direction, which was distracting, but tolerable. Skype had more dropouts, but that was to be expected. I forgot to have him run jitter and video tests. Maybe tomorrow.

The ATA is an InnoMobile MTA 6328-2Re. Looks like it has native support for some low bitrate CODECs, which is my guess(tm) what Exede is using. It also supports both SIP and MGCP. No clue yet which one Exede is using.

The bad news... $30/month.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Two of my volunteer gigs involve fixing/refurbishing donated kit of this sort. *Often*, laptops get scrapped solely because the "brick" that came with it was toast (there is too much variation among models and manufacturers to be able to piece together brick A with laptop B). Note these aren't always

*old* laptops, either!

I've been able to get spare knock-off power supplies for all my laptops readily, and cheaply, and all have had nice molded cables and worked properly (so far) (there are some 3rd party ones "universal" ones with adjustable voltage and a whack of connector adapters which do NOT work properly with some laptops- Dells I think mostly). I like to have adapters in multiple locations so forgetting them isn't an issue. Mind you, I don't wait eight years before trying to get one, but several years seems to be okay. Typically something like $15 each.

Of course if you're not permitted to spend any money at all in your activities, then this doesn't work.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

People often think the price of something is defined by what it cost to make. The price of a commodity has only to do with the market, supply and demand. Your places in Nevada that charge a little less have nothing to do with their proximity to refineries or oil wells.

There is a section of central Virginia where the price of gas is some 15 or 20 cents lower than most places in the state. No special reason that I can see. They are further from refineries and any natural resource for oil than other areas. I expect it is the economics of the area. They are a little less affluent than much of the state and when the price of gas goes up a little, they cut back on usage more than other areas I would expect.

Supply and demand... that's all it is. Ain't nobody in Nevada gas stations doing you any favors.

--

Rick

That;s the problem with non-profits.

At one of them (with which I am no longer affiliated), we'd receive between 10 and 100 donated laptops *every* week. Just don't have the manpower ("volunteer-power"?) to test, refurbish and distribute that many in that period of time.

So, it becomes a simple matter: anything that has "exotic" missing components (CD/DVD drives, plastic case parts, etc.) goes in the "toss" pile -- unless it looks to be really *cherry*! Anything with broken or missing components of which we don't likely have a

*spare* (stolen from some other piece of kit at some earlier point in time) also goes to the tip.

You're not going to spend a few hours testing, refurbishing, cleaning, installing software so you can give away the final "product" *AND* have to shell out $$$ for a new power supply, battery, etc.

[Folks would always grumble: "The battery doesn't work! What good is a laptop if the battery doesn't hold a charge?" "Well, you can buy a new battery!" "But they cost $80!" "So, what you're saying is you want *us* to spend that $80 for the laptop that we've just GIVEN to you??" (sigh)]

I've rebuilt power supplies, battery packs, etc. -- but not for items that will be "coming from" a non-profit. E.g., if I am given a device with a bad/missing power supply, I'll first test it with a lab supply (I've got a few old HP digitally programmable lab supplies that come in handy here). Once I know what state of (dis)repair it is in, I may choose to scrap it *or* rebuild it.

For a power supply, often just cannabilizing some *other* power supply (same or greater capabilities) and just marrying the right cable/connector to it. (I'm not fond of rebuilding encapsulated supplies because they are tricky to get apart and back together while still *looking* "good" :> )

C's laptop came to us in a similar way: a neighbor gave me one of their kids' laptops: "it doesn't work" (bad power supply). I tested it and shoved it in a desk drawer. Almost a year later, another friend dropped off the exact same model -- *with* a power supply (but with some cosmetic damage to the case). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to piece together one from two! :>

One of *my* laptops came from a friend at a three-letter company in feenigs. Another "bad power supply" story. I just found a similar supply and doctored the plug (barrel connector). While it's not a convenient laptop to lug around (heavy as all sin!), it's reasonably responsive and has a good set of I/Os for the types of devices with which I typically have to interface (e.g., a *real* serial port)

You'd be heartbroken to see how much stuff gets "discarded" -- often because people just want new or don't want to bother figuring out what's wrong with what they have! While much of it can be diverted from landfills, it's still an incredibly inefficient use of resources (e.g., I think a desktop PC has a "recycle" value of < $10)

Ok, I'm not sure how I would set up such a server. I may try it sometime if I can get a friend to cooperate. I do have a spare computer or two. But even if I get the server set up, how would you know if performance problems were at my end vs. the server end? We *are* talking about someone else's house for the server and why would their service be any better than mine?

Right now I am leaning to trying the NetTalk Duo setup. I was all set to get their $65 wifi unit. Their deal is you buy the unit with a year of service. Then extending for additional years is $30... plus those taxes and "fees". But then I found Walmart (who seems to have a deal with NetTalk) doesn't carry the wifi unit anymore. Still, the price is right and money back guarantee. What do I have to lose?

I wouldn't say "inadequate". I would say, "too expensive". $30 a month is twice what I pay for a phone line. I've heard a lot about how inexpensive Internet phones should be including the links you have pointed me to. So I prefer to pay less rather than more.

That doesn't mean they don't know what the taxes are! They have to charge them, so they obviously know. However they calculate them when they bill you, that can be done during sales as well. They just don't

*want* to. The "fees" on the other hand, are not taxes on the consumer at all. They are taxes that get passed on to the consumer. Totally different. Like asking a renter to pay the property taxes on the house they are renting.

LOL! You greatly overestimate my decorating capabilities. Right now I have one corner of the living room filled with a computer, an oscilloscope, other equipment and a cheap bookcase with the Internet modem cable tied to a lamp with no shade and the wifi router nearby. Actually in an attempt to get the best signal the lamp is sitting on a board sticking out from the shelf with a brick to adjust the height. Yes, we definitely need to match that and it may be difficult. If the LEDs on the VOIP box aren't the right shade of red and green it just

*won't* fit in...

Yeah, you are clearly overthinking my situation.

Even if they don't have outbound service? How do you use it?

Outbound only service has no phone number, right? Inbound only service can't use 911, right?

I was aware that cell phones could reach 911, I didn't know that about POTS. So even if you are turned off for non-payment you can dial 911? Interesting. That would solve my 911 problem. I had a POTS here many years ago. I'm pretty sure I don't get dialtone though.

But none of this stuff seem important.

Isn't that an out of date unit? One of the links I was given for equipment indicated a replacement unit, SPA2102 or something similar.

Thanks.

Ok

Still, $400 is a bit steep. Once I get VOIP I'll be happy. Everything else he does with his iPhone can be done through wifi.

I bet not...

--

Rick

Actually, not even that. *Perceived* value. What people can be made to *expect* to pay for something.

Porter's _The Price of Everything_ is an interesting read. Not just tangible things (why loss-leaders work, etc.) but also intangible things: e.g., how much does it "cost" to believe a certain *faith*? Why increasing a "cost" can lead to *fiercer* "loyalty" to that product? etc.

Amusing to see how much MORE folks peddling "stuff" to us know about why we buy and what we will spend then *we* appear to! (and how that can be used to manipulate your "purchases")

CBC radio has a good series available as podcasts called "Age of Persuasion".. now "Under the Influence". Might have been on NPR.

With the clever use of Big Data (especially search terms, web surfing and other viewing habits), a company could become aware of a potential need you have LONG before you are (probably longer in the case of non-computer literate people). A government could also track what you are going to be thinking before you know what you are going to think.

Just finished "Shadow Factory" by James Bamford .. interesting stuff.. and most of the claims have proven to be right on the money.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

Before you try it over the internet, do it locally. Plug a good fast computer into your ethernet switch as a server. Go to the dos|shell|cmd prompt and run: iperf -s For now, we'll use the defaults and TCP instead of UDP. iPerf will display the port number. You'll need to run ifconfig or ipconfig to get the IP address of the server.

Now, plug another machine into the ethernet switch as a client. Go to the dos|shell|cmd prompt and run: iperf -c IP_address_of_server

Get some performance numbers and see if they make sense.

Once that's working, try it via wireless, via the internet, or any other tests that might be of interest. To get jitter,.on the server side: iperf -s -u -i 1 and the client side: iperf -c Server_IP_address -u -b 10m The -b option allows you to allocate the maximum bandwidth, which in this case in 10 Mbits/sec.

Well, I do that by looking at graphs produced by the Java version which you seem reluctant to run. You can probably determine which end is a problem by introducing a 3rd internet connection to the test. Try the bidirectional tests between each of the three locations. If two paths are disgusting, while the 3rd is just fine, the endpoint that has the two disgusting paths is at fault.

If you find all this to be too much effort, I suggest you fire up a SIP softphone client on one of your computahs, and get someone else to do the same. Then make a direct connection between the two computahs. (This is a bit tricky so feel free to bug me for details). If that works, you have a chance with VoIP. If that fails because your 900 MHz WISP connection is infested with jitter, then you'll be the first to know before you spend any cash.

We're not trying to troubleshoot anything at this point. We're trying to determine if your 900 MHz WISP provider is capable of providing useable VoIP service. The tests simulate a VoIP connection and measure jitter, lost packets, and otto order packets. If any of these are not sufficient for VoIP service, you will be the first to know. I think it's a fair assumption that almost any wired broadband internet connection will be better than a 900 MHz wireless link.

You can only lose your time and money. I was trying figure out a way to test your WISP connection to make sure it will work for VoIP. Then, I was trying to figure out how to get any flavor of service without spending much time and money. That's the $35 PAP2 ATA. If you want to commit to some service for a year just to find that your WISP service is inadequate, feel free to burn the time and money.

I pay about $26/month for my AT&T POTS line, with measured rate and no long distance service. At $15/month, you're probably on Lifeline service, which is effectively subsidized home phone service. Please find a better comparison.

Dunno. Since Callcentric sells inbound and outbound service separately, it's conceivable that they only include E911 service if someone purchases outbound service.

Outbound only service has a phone number. For CallCentric is

1777-Your-CCID. CCID is your CallCentric user ID. You can't call that number from the PSTN (public switched telephone network) but you can call it from another SIP phone:

The $1.50 fee is NOT included in the following services: Pay Per Call outgoing service Any incoming service Under these products you WILL be billed for 911 separately, at $1.50/month plus a one time $1.50 setup fee, if you state that your are in the US or Canada. The way I read this is that you can make 911 calls with incoming only service.

Dunno. I've never had the experience. However, it's my understanding that if you have dialtone, you can dial 911.

Without dialtone, it won't work. This might help:

Yep. There are plenty of better and later devices. However, the PAP2-NA is probably the most widely used and widely supported device. You should not have any problems using it on any VoIP system. The only gotcha is that eBay is full of counterfeit PAP2 boxes.

That's a later unit. There's also an SPA3102 which supports fail over to POTS. Lots of options. Incidentally, I just ordered another 4 line SPA941 desk phone because I got tried of only having one line on my current SPA921. More than one line is really handy.

Incidentally, CallCentric recently added some new features, some of which involve extensions.

So, put a SIP softphone client in his iPhone and be done with it. One device does it all. Try a test call and see if the 900 MHz WISP link can handle it.

Assuming AT&T 4G data and an iPhone 4S, he's probably paying about $80/month for the service (and subsidized phone). That's almost $1,000/year. Somehow, $400 doesn't seem to much any more.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

I'll have a look.

Yup. Can't "be sure" of a particular outcome. But, with big enough datasets, they can be "reasonably sure" -- for large values of "reasonably"!

E.g., solely looking at "metadata", you could notice outliers in usage: "Gee, how come this user has such *low* usage" (e.g., a prepaid cell phone being used once every few months)

Or, in my case, why *don't* we see lots of data tied to his "ID"? (social media, credit card purchases, etc.)

Looking at who and how many "friends" you claim (claim you) can be a predictor of your behaviors, risks, etc. (e.g., facebook should be in the RISK ASSESSMENT business, not peddling advertisements!)

Here, I have serious concerns over how to prevent my automation system's observations of your "private" behaviors from being exploited. "Hmmm... he/she eats a lot of sweets, appears to have a voracious thirst -- perhaps diabetic??" "Lots of trips to the bathroom during the night -- prostate problems?" etc.

[Note: I'm just playing with stereotypes, here. With access to *lots* of data, I'm sure someone could notice: "people who eat beans on tuesdays and watch lots of westerns are more likely to own a firearm", etc.]

Uh, I think about 10 posts ago I said a friend had already tried her VOIP phone on my Internet connection and it seemed to work fine. So all of the above jitter tests, etc are overkill if the connection passes the acid test, no?

You used the WISP term which is the name the provider uses for this and in fact the ISP company name is iWisp. I take it this is a generic term? I thought it was a brand name. Is there just one major brand of products doing this function?

Funny note... when the guy was here hooking up a test he asked me for an email address. Having my own URL I make up email addresses that correspond to the vendor I am giving it out to, this allows me to track the source of spam. I gave him iwisp.net@ my URL and he gave me a really funny look like I was trying to pull something. I found that very funny... as in ha, ha funny.

The money issue is moot, they have a money back guarantee. I think the tests will be more time and effort than just trying a system to see how well it works. I had tried to find Internet reviews, but I think you think these are not of much value and I am not going to disagree with you. Every one I researched had a number of happy users (otherwise they would be out of business quick, no?) and a number of unhappy users, most of who seemed to have valid complaints. So I have to assume that the products work for most, but not all and more important is how the company deals with it. No one complained that NetTalk didn't have reasonable support.

I don't know what "lifeline" is, but I assure you my phone service is

*not* subsidized. This is what a phone line costs from Verizon. I pay $0.10 per call (which are typically few) and more than half the $15 is taxes and fees. The actual phone connection is just $6-7 a month. I think that is true about anywhere. My two places are 100 miles apart and in two different states and the bills were about the same with the same options for service. When I recently inquired (as part of my search for Internet, the WISP stuff is very new) Verizon has a very strange way of presenting the available services on their web site. I know you can get a simple, minimum cost plan from them because it is regulated by a public service commission. The web site seems to hide all this. I think every plan they showed had a bundle of services even if only long distance, caller ID, etc.

But that is not what their email says. That's my concern, they are better than that something-Nine outfit, but they still don't make the costs clear.

Then that is not a "phone" number.

I don't get that. They say they will bill you for 911, but they don't say you can make calls.

That's different, when you are cut off for non-payment you have no dialtone. But then I don't know for sure, I haven't had that problem in many, many years.

You are an amazing wealth of information I have to say.

One thing I'm not totally clear about is the second FXS jack on many adapters. The accounts seem to say they support a second phone, but in what way? Does that second phone have a separate number? Does it use the same number but you can have two separate calls on the same number?

We've already done that with a friend's phone adapter on more than one occasion.

Yes, he pays $100 a month for an unlimited plan (grandfathered in). But disposable income is hard to come by for a lot of people regardless of what they consider "essentials".

The NetTalk is the path of least resistance, but I do like the idea of getting service with a provider and having my own "universal" adapter. We'll see. NetTalk is so cheap it will be hard to beat on price unless I lived in NY state (NetTalk actually has totally free accounts in NY for local service). I'm going into town tomorrow (it's a 25 mile drive to anyplace that would sell this sort of electronics) and I'll see if I can pick one up. I think the Walmart web site says they don't carry them in the stores, but you have to order it online and they ship it to the store which still takes three or four days. So I might still not have it tomorrow.

--

Rick

That is one repair I have done lately. All of my PS adapters wear out the cable where it goes into the "strain relief". For some reason the wire in the cable gets covered with something gooey. But I cut the cord, crack open the case and reattach it. The only hard part is trying to get the wires clean enough to take solder.

I'd love to get my hands on a couple of old, recycled laptops. I've gotten a couple of working desktops on Freecycle, but laptops are harder to come by. I just can't see spending bucks on a new machine when something five years old would still be perfect for many apps.

Many of the things I do with laptops are as desktop replacements. Desktops are actually very inconvenient because of the size.

I know and I *am*... but I understand *why*. I used to think people were talking through their hats when they said it was all about planned obsolescence. But computers really aren't any faster than they were five years ago and they don't do anything they didn't do before or even better than before, so why do we have to keep upgrading? Because that is the only way the software and hardware companies can stay in business cranking out new stuff.

I recently heard that sales of new PCs was *way* down. This may be the beginning of the end for the traditional PC. It may be all tablets and smart phones in another five years.

So why can't VOIP advance as fast and become a staple of communications?

--

Rick

When I looked up the manual for the equipment I was given they sell equivalent units to work at a variety of frequencies.

--

Rick

No. One phone call does not constitute a test. You don't have any measurements, just pass/fail. You should see what happens under worst case situations, such as you downloading something on another computer, or running Bitorrent. Otherwise, you run the risk of having it only work when nobody else is using the internet.

Sorry. When talking telecom, everything is in acronyms. I tried to avoid doing that but missed the WISP acronym. It's short for Wireless Internet Service Provider. I used to work with one in Boulder Creek about 15 years ago.

That's typical with VoIP. The quality of the service is largely dependent on the quality of the internet connection. If you have lots of bandwidth, little jitter, and a proper router, you'll have no problem. If any of these are lacking, you will have problem. I kinda like the vendors where the review sites are full of billing complaints. That means that the service works just fine and that all that's left to complain about is the billing.

I worry a little when that happens. Quality products don't need much support.

Sorry. I'm in AT&T territory and know little of Verizon POTS pricing. I didn't know they could do it that cheap. I would probably use the same plan if I could get it here.

Since you have two location, you can get two phones setup as "extensions" on one phone number. That cuts your phone bill in half.

Correct. It's really a CallCentric ID number.

The only question is whether the ingoing only service provides dialtone. If it does, you can make 911 calls. If not, you can't make

911 calls. When I was using CallCentric, I had both incoming and outgoing, so it wasn't an issue. I don't see it as much of an issue as you're more likely to be buying both in and out service.

I vaguely recall some kind of regrettable incident, where AT&T suddenly cut off service for non-payment, where the resident needed to make an emergency call but couldn't. After that public relations disaster, AT&T leaves dialtone and 911 service enabled for non-payment. I'm not sure how long they leave it on, but when I took possession of a rental house that had been empty for about 90 days, I still had dialtone on the previous owner. Verizon may be different.

I prefer the other type of wealth, where I'm somewhat lacking.

It's usually a separate line with a separate phone number or a separate phone extension on the same phone number as the main line. It totally depends on how it's provisioned with plenty of creative options. If you buy your ATA from a VoIP provider, it's most likely going to be setup as an extension, where you can have two conversations at the same time over the same internet connection (but not via two different providers as the VoIP provider isn't terribly thrilled with you using his equipment on the competitions system).

On a more complexicated ATA, like the SPA3102, the 2nd line can be:

1. A 2nd service provider with a separate phone number.
2. An extension on the same phone number as line 1.
3. A POTS fallback or pass through. The last is a bit tricky. It's commonly used direct local calls to a POTS line, where the CLEC provides a large number of bundled "free" minutes, and switch automatically to the VoIP line, for toll and long distance calls, which would be charged by the minute.

Also available from CallCentric: The catch is that you have to be in New York state and you are required to pay for E911 service. The service originates with Telengy, which is a NY area CLEC and the parent company of CallCentric. I don't know how NetTalk got into the puzzle, but my guess is that they also get their DID (dial in direct) lines from Telengy and may have a similar billing arrangement.

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Because most internet services (HTML, SMTP, etc) need only gross bandwidth and some buffering to work. You can have substantial delays, such as in satellite communications, and it will still work.

VoIP needs low latency, low jitter, low packet loss, and low out of order packets. In the rush to broadband, these specifications are being compromised (or ignored). We are not going to have reliable and widespread VoIP service until the major providers either improve these factors, or provide a seperate path (as Comcast had done).

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

A lot of podcasts and even some low budget news shows like Democracy Now use VOIP in the form of Skype. It is just awful. Words getting chopped. Video going haywire.

Some of the network companies came from a telephony background. They understood the things that make VOIP work. The problem was if you were a telephony company, you had that big customer base and didn't have to be so nimble in business. Nortel being a good example of how to have good technology and totally fail. Lucent would have been t*ts up except for the purchase by Alcatel.

So networking isn't about voice, it is about data.

Most people have full duplex conversations. I have a friend that has a satellite hookup in his travel trailer. You have to say "over" a lot during conversations. OK for ham radio, not so good for phone use.