Re: Liability & responsibility of electrician?

The information is there. Whether you wish to read it or not is of course up to you.

Exactly. The NEC relies on precise definitions. If they are not understood by all involved in the conversation, it degenerates into another usenet pissing contest.

I see it too, but I would like to hear what your observations are.

Sorry, we have workers that are far above you.

You would never pass the interview let alone pass a electrical code inspection visit.

I'm not confused.

You can twist the NEC rules to your way all you want. fact is, you obviously do not understand all that you read.

And I say again, with those bad habits in mind, you may find your self on the failing end of a code inspection.

P.S. I've forwarded 2 of your post to a colleague of mine which is a Electrical instructor, State code inspector and he gets together with those that review the NEC book from time to time.

Needless to say, he's getting a chuckle.

Keep it up please, he just went through a divorce at age 62, this is cheering him up !.

Well, first of all, I see that many see the field as just a laboring job and give little regard as to why some of the rules they follow even exist. They tend to take short cuts over their careers and end up doing sloppy dangerous work. When the inspectors tag then, they think they're getting picked on.

A good electrician will be able to fully understand every article published in the book and the reason why its there. This is where many fall short, they don't understand what they're reading and just do it any ways, well, that can lead to forgetting to do it one day or deciding it's not important any more and start inventing some of their own rules.

I'll give you an example:

On an interview test, we have a question about installing outlets at a kitchen counter area for the use of things like electric fry pans, crock pots etc.. The main part of the question is "Where do you think the best place would be to install outlets for these appliances at the counter" You would be surprised at how many get that wrong, of course in many cases people would love to have them at the counters edge so that one could simply drop the cord just over the edge to an under eve outlet how ever, that is illegal and made that way because of to many child accidents from little ones pulling on cords of live appliances. Just think of a crock pot with hot grease in it dumping over a child's head. It did happen once, it killed the child, that is why that rule has been in the books for years.

THe problem here is, the NEC book does not give a lot of example reasons why the rules are there and there for, people decide to use what ever they understand.

I good electrician will think beyond the book and visually be able to place scenarios of accidents taking place from not following these rules. He also understands the real theory of how electricity works and the reasons why many things are practiced, using correct terminology is also very important when working with other skilled Electricians. You can not be using incorrect language in this field where some one else may pick up where you left off and do something dangerous all because two or more electricians didn't understand the true meaning of the terminology in use.. That's a another big problem we've seen in the coarse of electricians.

This is a major problem of comprehension of following the rules that were put there for a reason.

You don't need to be license to know this, I've found on the average that license electricians are the worse offenders after they get a few hours under their wing.. Many of them never really fully understand, all they do is pull wire, and connect the dots!

It's shad but true..

Well, then, when the discussion was using EMT as an equipment grounding conductor, why did you say something about using it as a "ground source"?

Fine -- explain exactly what it was that I failed to understand.

ROTFLMAO! How will using an equipment grounding conductor that is _explicitly permitted_ by the Code, cause me to fail an inspection?

You go have a good time with your imaginary friends, y'hear?

You mean, terminology like "ground source"?

ROTFLMAO again.

Oh really, have you got a surprise coming.

I will now put you on the ignore list since it appears that you're incompetent and not worth my time.

What, you mean you *do* actually know something about the Code after all? That

ROTFLMAO! Translation: you're embarrassed because I showed, repeatedly, that you don't know what you're talking about. That's OK. You can go back to sweeping the floor now. They'll let you take the Code exam again next year.

EMT may be ALLOWED by code, but It is still not to be RECOMMENDED as an equipment ground..

You can use it, but I would not.

Your spell checker's no smarter than you are when it comes to spelling, eh? Just yanking your chain - but you have a LOT of spelling errors.

Questions such as "...where's the best place to install outlets..." are poorly worded, because you're making a lot of uncommunicated assumptions about best FOR WHAT that the person you're asking might not have in mind. Really, it's no better than asking, "What's the best car?" -- there's no possibly good answer available without stating what you value.

BTW, in your specific example... we have a kitchen island, and it has outlets "just over the edge" -- and I assume the house was built in accordance to NEC rules. The island is small enough that it wouldn't really be practical to stick them in the center.

Your interview test would be much better if you just asked people things like, "What sort of safety concerns do you think there are with outlets mounted against a wall? How about with those mounted over the edges?" -- They should be able to come up with something there.

---Joel

That may easily be, but the dimwitted "Jamie" is claiming that it's against code.

conductors"

Then the various Licensed Electricians who installed machines etc over the years at the factory I finished tearing down yesterday were all doing it illegally. 75,000 sq ft and no grounds in any of the boxes/runs.

California btw..Anaheim.

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement, reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

You're a little late to the party, Gunner. I've already demonstrated that Jamie doesn't have any idea what he's talking about when it comes to wiring practices or the electrical code.

conductors"

Jamie is a ham radio operator who claims to be an engineer. He is about as bright as the 50+ sock puppet dimbulb troll.

his real name and address are:

Maynard A Philbrook, Jr

He claims his company continues to use chemicals banned by the EPA, that he reused outlets at higher than rated voltages where he works. He pretends he is intelligent, but rarely makes a post without a dozen spelling and punctuation errors, along with words that make no sense. A lot like your friend Bill Sloman who cross posts here sometimes. The old SOB who whines about everything American, and that they discriminate against him in Europe, because he's old.

conductors"

Are you done, pussy?

Do you think it is very wise posting people's private contact info without being solicited to do so is a wise move?

And you are retarded enough to think that someone is going to be showing up at my door?

conductors"

yeah, I bet their GFCI's really worked reliably in wet places.

I bet workers just love how they got shocks now and then from aux equipment.

P.S. Old mills are grand fathered in, unless, they do updates. Any new installations are suppose to follow code. also, years ago it was common when switching the mill over to higher voltages, they kept on using lower voltage receptacles. There was a transition period allowed to give plenty of time for the switch over, mean while, they simply did things like 480 volts in a 240 volt receptacle.. AUX equipment would use the 208/240 etc. plugs with 480 in it.

Still today, this is being done! shame! shame!

There are exceptions to the rules how ever, insurance companies love to force these old places to update their basic electricals with modern wiring systems, cause they know these old mills are full of code violations.! and grounding and old clothe wire is a big one these days, along with wire rungs not out of reach or being protected via something like a jacket (romix) or pipe with a ground in it.

Voltages below 50, can ignore most of everything that is in there how ever, in this state, maybe others, the state government is now attempting to enforce (more) low voltage licenses, installers licenses etc.. of just about anything.

Just goes to show, its all about the money..