Re: Liability & responsibility of electrician?

What your excerpts are stating is that licensing is controlled at the local level instead of at a state level. None of them say that a license is not required.

Actually, by code you can have 6 phase conductors, 3 neutrals, and use the EMT as your ground, giving you 6 circuits instead of just 4.

In the VAST majority of the country licencing and the unions are totally divorced from each other.

Large percentage of residential electicians are non union in many areas of the country - both Canada and the USA.

You, apparently, don't live in Washington. The state is *very much* the authority here. Local and county officials have nothing to do with electrical power regulations.

Harold

Wow, you just can't admit you were wrong, can you? You need to read more carefully, particularly regarding Kansas and Ohio, and the full text provided at that site for Pennsylvania. You also need to draw the obvious conclusion that whether a license is, or is not, required in the states listed is a matter of *local jurisdiction*. Your blanket statement that licenses are required (by implication, everywhere) is simply false.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to provide the cites I requested:

- show that it's illegal for a homeowner residing in an unincorporated area of Green Twp, Madison Cty, Indiana to perform electrical work on his own home without a license or permit

- show that it's illegal for anyone to perform electrical work on a residence in the town of Noblesville, Hamilton Cty, Indiana, without a license or permit.

You claim licenses are required for all electrical work. Prove it.

No, I live in Indiana, where the state is very much *not* the authority on a whole host of things -- illustrating the point that I've been trying to make to the guys who insist that permits and licenses are required everywhere: it varies from place to place.

In some imaginary 7th grade civics class.

In the real world that I live in, the various unions never miss an opportunity to support any elected official that is willing to pass laws or code that will increase their wealth and job security.

licenses=20

local=20

local=20

local=20

businesses=20

Division of=20

residential=20

employees)=20

2,565=20

requirements=20

no=20

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=20

You have staked your claim well, but forgot to provide any backup (links). I will take your position under advisement.

Look again. I posted the link.

In states where licencing is local, unless ALL jurisdictions require licencing, there would be areas where licencing is not required.

I'm sure this is the case. Vast majority of states, however, DO have licencing at the state level

Well, where I live, self employed electricians are NOT unionized. The vast majority of residential electrical work is subcontracted by the contractor to numerous small electrical contractors - many of which have no employees. All partners. Therefore, no union.

Industrial and commercial electrical work is almost universally union because the contractors are union shops or use predominantly union subs - and union workers generally will not work on the same job as non-union workers.

Licencing is up to government crooks. Unions are non-government crooks Same cloth, different bolt

I am well aware of this. However, I'm thinking of the future owner of the house whose knowledge of electric wiring consists of only plug-it-in/turn-it-on. If they decide THEY are going work on this installation and open up a J-box and discover a couple of dozen wires in it (never mind the box extensions)... Well, if you don't have the proper knowledge or training for the task, either learn the proper way, or get an knowledgeable person to do it for you.

BTW: I don't trust the EMT-to-box connection via the connectors. As such, I pull an equipment grounding wire for MY peace of mind.

Thomas

I would like to know where you have 6 phase service?

I won't go into the use of EMT as a ground source.

He didn't say that. The context makes it very clear that by "phase conductors" he means what the NEC refers to as "ungrounded conductors", or, in the vernacular, "hot wires".

EMT is explicitly permitted by the NEC as an equipment grounding conductor. [2008 National Electrical Code, Article 250.118(4)]

A grounding conductor is not a ground source.

Yes, on the solid run, but not after any couplings, connectors etc.. A Greed Wire is to be inserted in the pipe to insure a real grounding system and each box is to be connected to this ground.

You can not use EMT or the like for a grounding source directly, it has to have a ground wire in it and the attached equipment in the circuit also connects to this same ground.

As for the article you popped up, I think you'll find it proteins to the use of EMT as a grounding buss point, meaning, several grounds can come off this point using ground clamps from a single run with no couplings how ever, a main ground source must be bonded to this pipe.

If you truly believe otherwise, then you are practicing very dangerous habits.

Haven't you ever heard of galvanetic issues with EMT hardware?

I work in a manufactory facility where we still have a lot of older machines using the access boxes as the ground sources for attached equipment with no internal ground wire feed from the main buss. I can say in the time that I have been there, we have seen several fires from lose EMT hardware connections causing arcs because the attached equipment was having ground issues.

With dust,oil and paint that has been apply to these machines, it makes a nice catalysis for a fire. Most of the time if your lucky, the lose connects will weld them self's long enough to force the protection to initiate.

I think some people that call them self a electrician should take a good long look in the mirror.

And licensing has nothing to do with what you actually know about the field. We've had licensed electricians walk in our facility looking for job and after the interview, I can understand why they are not employed.

I would say with the majority I have seen here, they wouldn't be getting a job at our facility, not even a fuse puller..

Really,. there is so much illegal and dangerous drivel taking place on this subject, it's unbelievable.

And while I'm at it..

We do have a position available for a second shift maintenance Electrician. If any one is interested and wants to know more about the duties of this job, you can Email me. I'll fill you in on the rest or, I'll just give you the job address and you do the rest your self.

Job location is in the central part of Connecticut.

Not true. The NEC requires bonding only "where necessary to ensure electrical continuity."

Really? Where in the Code is this supposed requirement found?

Nobody ever said that you could.

True, but completely irrelevant. We were talking about using EMT as an equipment grounding conductor -- which is explicitly permitted by the Code -- not using it as part of the grounding electrode system.

Wrong.

"The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing the circuit conductors shall be one or more of a combination of the following: ...

1) [Cu or Al wire] 2) Rigid metal conduit 3) Intermediate metal conduit 4) Electrical metallic tubing .." [2008 NEC, Article 250.118]

Maybe you ought to actually read what the Code says, instead of making stuff up.

The NFPA (publishers of the NEC) apparently don't think it's dangerous to use EMT as an equipment grounding conductor. If you believe it is, you're of course welcome to make your objections known to them, and try to persuade them to change their minds.

In the meantime, I'll continue to install wiring in compliance with the actual provisions of the Code, and pay no attention to the unsubstantiated claims of people who clearly do not know what the Code permits or prohibits.

Of course -- and that's why there are places where the Code prohibits its use.

If the EMT connections were actually loose enough to arc, that means they were improperly installed.

Considering your ignorance of the Code, though, I think it's reasonable to question your qualifications to determine the cause of either the arcs or the fires.

The problem obviously is the "ground issues" on the equipment, compounded by improper installation of the EMT -- not the EMT itself.

You probably ought to find a job at a place that hires _qualified_ electricians.

Physician, heal thyself.

"Ground source" (a term not used by the NEC) and "equipment grounding conductor" are *not* the same thing, your confusion of the two notwithstanding.