Re: Liability & responsibility of electrician?

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'that brian of yous' says it all, Maynard.

Do you see anything wrong yet?

Hint: that isn't it.

Too easy! You cannot run the phase conductors separately like that. When running parallel feeds like that, it should've been 2 conduits with the 3 phase conductors in each.

Of course you can't, and of course it should. But Jamie didn't realize that -- he still thinks the problem is the lack of [completely unnecessary] ground wires in the other two tubes.

Yes, this is old - but if you want to get pedantic you CAN INDEED take 3-phase power and make 6-phase power if you have a use for it. They used to do it all the time on the old 'turn of the 20th Century' transit trolley power supply stations.

They made a large double transformer to take incoming 2,400V or

Much easier to rectify that 6-phase AC power into nice smooth 600V DC - which was done with a rotary converter "filing off all the high spots and dumping it in the low spots" that was for all practical concerns an autotransformer motor-generator. Rather efficient, no drama, they just worked.

No high current solid state rectifier plants would be available for many decades, and the early mercury tube rectifiers were unreliable and lossy.

Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris CA has a totally restored and operating rotary converter station on display and available for tours. The Auto-Start and Auto-Stop sequencing with a huge cam switch (and a current sensing setup so it could do it all by itself as a trolley came through the served rural district) is a true display of Rube Goldberg Engineering - and they let me push the button, too.

Nice panel mounted open-frame contactors with arc chutes sending controlled little gouts of flame toward the floor...

conductors"

That NEC section starts out: The equipment grounding conductor shall be ONE OR MORE OR A COMBINATION OF THE FOLLOWING...

You CAN used the EMT as the sole safety ground source in older installations, it is "legal" to do so - but you would be a fool to trust it as truly safe.

I always combine them - you make up the conduit system properly as one of the grounding paths, then run a seperate grounding conductor inside the conduit, even if it really isn't called for - because WHEN someone gets hurt or killed they start asking a lot of very uncomfortable questions. And if they don't like the answers...

Electrical safety is a very odd thing - For any situation there are many correct answers and many wrong ones. Pick one or more of the correct ones, and avoid the known wrong ones.

Legal, but not necessarily smart. But if the customer refuses to pay for a seperate grounding conductor to get the job done a little cheaper, and it is legal the way they want it done, there isn't a lot you can do.

Then again, most of those old buildings have large amounts of steel in them as building materials, and they will serve as secondary ground paths - unintentional, but whatever works...

It gets corrected when an outside entity blows up an expensive piece of test gear - and then bills the plant for it...

And the power was probably imbalanced, too. Never worked with anything that big, but AFAICT the best practice is to have multiple conduits in parallel, but run one conductor for each phase through each conduit, and cut the wire so they are all matching lengths.

Each conduit would have a 750MCM of all three phases, and a smaller ground. That way they magnetically cancel each other out on start current Locked Rotor Amps surges.

Having one phase in each pipe puts a LOT of stress on the hangers, every time that 500HP motor starts those conduits with individual phases are trying to jump off the wall from the magnetic forces. And if they manage to do it, they will short out and all hell is truly going to break loose.

Or just give up and install Bus Duct like a practical person.

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Michael A. Terrell can't get anything right. I do point out that Americans could do some things better, which isn't exactly complaining about everything American. I am entirely in favour of the American attitude to ageism.

It's not a European problem, but a problem with the Dutch, who expect everybody to retire at 55, and do their best to make sure that anybody over 55 stays retired. I did manage to get a job in the Netherlands at

Michael Terrell seems to be a bit too dim to appreciate that Europe consists of number of different countries with different histories and different attitudes.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney, Australia at the moment).

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conductor.

Yawn.

How is this for dim? You couldn't even recognize an obvious forgery and posted:

If you weren't quite the ill-informed idiot that you are, you'd know that the dielectric in an electrolytic capacitor is formed by the electrolytic oxidation of the surface of the aluminium foil the forms the plates of the capacitor.

If you reverse bias the capacitor you can reverse this process, making the dielectric thinner ( and more likely to break down). Sadly, the reverse process is unlikely to thin the oxide layer to exactly the same extent at every point, so you run the risk of lowering the breakdown voltage faster than you increase the capacitance.

As cheap goes, this about a poor and investment of your time as you could make - short of slandering me in this user group which however does seem to give you some kind of demented satisfaction - but do try it. You won't enjoy the process at all, but does that worry me?

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Well, no, but any attempt at forcing compliance with a code that didn't exist at the time the installation was made falls under the Constitutional prohibitions against ex post facto legislation...

Fire codes do this all the time, particularly in commercial and rental units. Smoke and CO detectors being prime examples.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

True, but note the condition I mentioned: COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT circuits. By this I mean sharing ONLY the EGC.

NEC 210.4(B) stipulates that multiwire branch circuits be provided with a disconnecting means that simultaneously opens all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates. Therefore, since this is a residence and therefore 120/240 single-phase, a 3-wire branch circuit requires either a 2-pole breaker or two single-poles with handle ties installed. This means they are NOT completely independent as I stipulated.

My reasoning is this: if one leg trips due to an overload or short, it makes it more difficult to determine the cause. Which leg has the fault? Now TWO circuits I'd have to unload then test individually. It seems more practical to just pull a dedicated grounded conductor for each phase conductor and use single-pole breakers. This may seem a bit silly or unnecessary, but from a practical standpoint it makes more sense. Besides, Joe Homeowner who is living here after me in all likelihood will not know about this code requirement (210.4(B)) and wonder why there are numerous 15A and 20A 2-pole breakers in the service panel, and why single-pole breakers were not used. Never mind opening a J-box to add a light or receptacle and discovering two dozen or so wires in a J-box...

I am keeping in mind that I am rewiring a RESIDENCE and that supervised alterations and/or maintenance of this electrical installation is NOT guarantied.

Thomas

Jamie The grandfather clause in all electrical codes is our nations prohibition against ex post facto laws. For an electrical code to be enforceable by a government entity it has to have been adopted as an enactment of the legislative body, at least by reference, and signed into law. The only code that can be enforced against any given installation is the one in legal affect at the time the work was done. So the code itself need not contain any language exempting existing installations from it's provisions since it is a legal absurdity to attempt to regulate anything after the fact.

I'm not trying to be quarrelsome. I just thought that it was worth understanding that point in discussing existing electrical installations.

-- Tom Horne

exist

OK Explain how requiring the installation of smoke or CO detectors in rental or commercial properties after the enactment of the enabling legislation is the same as applying the current electric code to a preexisting installation.

-- Tom Horne

A particular inspectior in a particular jurisdiction might have allowed this, but it would not be to code, and ther eIS NO GRANDFATHER CLAUSE any where in the NEC.

jk

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conductor.

So you are admitting that his summery of you, is correct.

Maynard.....damn...I didnt think parents would do that to kids anymore.

So does your first name explain your dementia? Or does the A stand for Asswipe?

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement, reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

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conductor.

The term is summary, you retarded twit, and he was not talking to me, dumbfuck.

Jamie is Jamie. You are a brainless twit, on the other hand. Thanks for exposing yourself as such, so that folks can easily recognize you and filter and ignore you.

The total retard that thinks he ranks high in society. You barely rate retard, retard. Your sig proves that.

They're both ex post facto laws. The buildings were existing long before the law was passed.

The word is Psuedonym, you retarded twit.

Only to those that have it coming. By refusing to set your PC clock correctly, you epitomize one that would and well should have it coming. A few of your claimed attributes are projections by you from looking in the mirror, however.

I have yet to see any document where you were commissioned to make any such assessment. Perhaps it could be related to the fact that you have zero capacity to make such an assessment. You are unqualified, unsolicited, unprofessional, and too deeply entrenched into the muck that is your flawed personality to ever make any such assessment on anyone. That is probably why no such commission ever took place.

Bwuahahahahahah! You're funny.

Your family use wells for cess pits often, do they?

How many water tables has your family contaminated over the centuries?

As if a dope like you could declare anything as being dubious and have it be a credible claim.

Yes, when installations like that, you are suppose to have a ground in each. But the problem is, our guys, me, who ever else, didn't have anything to do with this installation. It wasn't until later down the road when we started to take regular IR scan shots, is when the problem was noticed.

These pipes are very high up, it's not like they're in harms way of people how ever, we were concerned about the accumulated dust that sits on these EMT runs and the possibility of the insulation of the internal wire getting soft on the tight corners.

You haven't lived until you've been in a building that has been in existence for years from one business to another, wire hacks all over the place.

I was asked once to look at some cable that had been installed at some point (before my time), lying on top of a couple of rows of fluorescent lights for a long run. It gets hot in the summer, and things get warm up there. I went up in a lift truck, and notice the jacket of a 8 wire cable was breaking down. It is solidifying. That hasn't yet been corrected but will have to be address at some point. I suppose the THHN wires in it will survive.

You're correct, there isn't, that has long been past.

when the change was done, there was a time period allotted to us, to update the electrical to match the change.

Not all of it has been done in many of the old mills/factories..

The issue is that, a lot of portable equipment is used from one process to another, locations change and so on. One has the correct plug, where the other does not. So, most of the time, the shortest way is taken during portable equipment relocation.

When you have plant managers constantly at you, you tend to find the fastest way to make them happy. Of course, when something goes wrong, the big guy simply goes down the food chain. Facts of life.

The guy above you is never wrong, that is why you get s*it on, and all you see when you look up, is an ass.

So many live in closets!..