not a new subject - women in electronics and computing?

That was my point. They then become bad managers with an 'engineering qualification' and are put in charge of (and parasite upon) real engineers.

Some of them go on to obtain exalted positions in universities or professional organisations, when they should have been stripped of the title 'engineer' years ago.

That last paragraph is a description of your personal feelings, not proof of genetic hard-wiring. I also get a squirmy feeling about smooth-talking politicians, but I don't feel it is in any way sexually related.

I used to be somewhat worried when preference tests to identify 'masculinity' and 'femininity' kept putting me on the female side of the spectrum (I am a heterosexual male). Now I just think how lucky I am to be able to see both sides of this artificial fence not to have to be forced by stupid prejudices into 'behaving like a real man'.

There are biological differences which are usually clear-cut, there are some psychological trends which are not at all rigidly defined - but behaviour and preferences are up to the individual and should not be imposed by society.

What I *have* noticed is a fairly clear-cut distinction between men who feel like you do about the matter and men who feel like I do. This does not 'prove' anything about either of us, but is merely an interesting observation. I can give two examples which brought the distinction to my attention:

a) In the course of my dressmaking hobby, I made myself a kilt and found it was incredibly comfortable. I now wear kilts and/or skirts a lot at home. Some men can adjust to this without the slightest worry (except perhaps a friendly joke) but others are revolted by it and cannot settle until I have changed back to trousers. The latter men simply cannot come to terms with it, no matter how much they try - and they cannot understand any other man failing to be upset by it.

b) I was the producer of a talking book which was one man's story of a journey; at the time, only a female reader was available. I listened to her for a few minutes and decided that it was easy to become immersed in the story and forget that here was a woman reading a man's part. We recorded the book and went to market it, but about a third of the male reviewers said they simply could not cope with a woman's voice saying things that only a man would say.

Interesting, but in no way conclusive.

Hello Le Chaud Lapin, Very interesting comments.

For a balanced and accurate view on my current work, there is a reasonanable summary in this Month's Fast company magazine, describing my image capture research with Gordon Bell (inventor of minicomputer) and my design of a camera to help people with memory loss:

re "high-end optics to makes sure the target is found". Yes my SenseCam certainly includes that, an Infra Red detector on the front to detect people, but just to capture their image!

Lyn

Le Chaud Lap> snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Hello Fractal Curves, Thank you for your interesting reply.

I guess I've been "helped" on my way by numerous job changes (the way of contract self employment in the UK ) and so experienced a variety of work and companies. I've never had networks or contacts so done it the hard way.

When I stood under the Goldern Gate Bridge I was seriously impressed and then interested in reading about engineering issues in designing it. I didn't want to design a "bigger" bridge. That's only because I work in electronics/computers rather than civil engineering.

Re "> to jot down their answers on a blank piece of paper, anonymously, and stick 'em in a box." That does sound constructive and I will try it!

To all: I know I'm top posting, but google groups works this way, so please bear with me....

Lyn

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

We've clearly worked at all the same places. ;-)

Dilbert gets it sooo right.

Well it is, sort of... somewhat like IEEE, or AARP ;-)

...Jim Thompson

That's because they are all the same......

The last place I had a job, a long time ago now, the test manager had grown up with the company. A supremely nice bloke, extremely good with people and exceptionally good at his job.

I had been there about two weeks and he asks me if it's the same with other companies to which I had to say...... sort of, but it's not as shit as this place.

I kind of resigned after three months by not turning up for work one day and then continued not to do so.

Three weeks later the test manager did things properly. Got another job first, handed in his letter of resignation and worked his notice. It's more than they, the company, deserved. Good bloke, last I heard he was much happier.

DNA

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:28:39 -0500, krw wrote in Msg.

Read again. The person wearing the shirt was not female.

robert

Lyn ...

I do believe that you and fractal are the only two females in this thread. THere may be others, and if so I apologize for the omission.

I do note with mild curiousity that of the whole bunch, you two are the only ones that will decently snip long rambling messages to post your replies. Most of the males in this group will quadruple-quote hundreds of lines to post a one line reply.

I'm not sure why that is so.

Jim

They don't like the competition! Also, it gets interesting if your church is in a residential neighborhood. Now, a Sunday only traffic problem becomes an all week problem. Also, some folks don't like having groups of kids around...

Plus, it was those school unions that got the supervisors elected!

Charlie

Yes, I've also seen these kind of responses in men and would suspect it's a social conditioning type knee jerk. Skirts, Kilts, who should care?. It's functional clothing. The Malaysian labourers I chatted with, appeared for all the world all to be wearing pretty 'dresses' but the attire was in fact perfect for the work they were doing. What has given me cause for much interesting introspection though, is whether my unease at seeing men kissing (or even hugging), is entirely down to a working class upbringing, or if something more fundamental climbs into the driving seat. john

Ah Mathcad! Discovered it back in '89 or so, and it saved my hinney so many times in grad school, it was ridiculous. My first grad class was Microwave Filters (Matthai!) and I had a couple of strikes against me. First, I didn't know ANY filter theory. Next, it was only my second semester in EE, so I was still knew to mathematical filter design. I was a hobbiest going back for a Masters, so know how things worked, just didn't know how to quantify a lot of things. But, a friend had 'given' me a copy of Mathcad, so when we did a filter design homework, I came up with a way...

First, I went into Touchstone and 'built' the circuit. Tweaked the dimensions on the tlines and other components until I got the values I wanted.

Then, I went in Mathcad, and set up the various mathematical configurations, entered the values I had gotten from the working design, and tweaked the equations until I found the one that worked. Of course, this was completely backwards from the procedure we were 'supposed' to do, but it worked! I even told the professor what I was doing, he laughed, and gave me my A anyway!

Charlie

...

^^^^^^^^^^^^

s/misogynistic/gynophobic/

;-)

Cheers! Rich

Hello Charlie,

AFAIK it's zoned commercial and there is a residential neighborhood on the back side. There'll be hearings but I guess the residents would rather like a church school than what's there now, an empty lot where quite spooky looking fellers can be seen at times.

Not the county supes. They were elected by voters and in our county the voters lean towards the conservative side. We are on the east side of the long political divide that splits California from north to south, where on the other side .... no, I won't start.

Nah, the AMA has some teeth (curriculum, licensing, etc.). The IEEE is a social organization run by management and academics. The AARP is simply evil.

woOOOSShhhhh!

Eeasy, brother Joerg. I spent 8 years on our county board of supes, and while I was considered a maverick liberal in the "east side" Nevada County, in the rest of the state I'd have been considered one step to the right of Atilla the Hun.

Jim

Interestingly, I also had that response from one woman - she physically shuddered at the sight of one of my skirts. Another objected on the lines of "What would the neighbours think", but that is a different matter.

A long warm skirt when you are sitting at the computer on a cold day is much more comfortable.than trousers. When I am soldering at the workbench, I wear a skirt made of a hard cotton material which repels the solder splashes without damage. Trousers made from that sort of material would be stiff and uncomfortable and I had previously ruined several pairs of ordinary trousers by dropping solder on them.

Repairing the car ...trousers or boiler suit.

I find kissing in public slightly distateful, whichever combination of sexes it involves. But it doesn't bother me to see people giving each other a friendly, non-sexual, hug.

Much more to do with upbringing and experience than with any kind of sexual 'hard-wiring', I think.

Hello Jim,

That's what I meant. Luckily we live on the "east side" of the state :-)