----------------------- It's nothing like a religion at all, it is obvious that everyone deserves and inherits an equal right to the world from our common ancestors to that of anyone else's, and this means that claiming that you own their home and forcing them to work for you to keep it, and pay you half your wage to do so is THEFT AND SLAVERY! They must organize as a Majority and refuse to pay rent and then take over government to threaten landlords that collecting rent is now made a death-penalty crime of enslavement, and they can be killed for trying to do so. In addition, the Majority must finally do away with unequal pay for any workers, and to reclaim ALL property to their control, since the Majority DOES control the world, and then ceded it to individuals as home compounds from which they can NEVER be evicted, since eviction is a fate that should never be inflicted upon ANYONE EVER!
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
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Archie Bunker is an Americanised version of Alf Garnett - caricature of a reactionary (and very ill-informed) British right-winger invented by Johnny Speight
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If you'd inserted leftist ideas into his mind - in word, educated him
- he'd have ceased to have been a useful caricature, as has already been pointed out in this thread by RSW.
If one could educate John S. Dyson, he too would probably become what he now describes as a typical leftist, but this does not a appear to be a testable hypothesis - the man (to give him the benefit of the doubt) doesn't seem to have the capacity to rise above his current ill-informed condition.
This might be due to stupidity - nothing he has written seems to rule this out - or it might be due to a particularly insidious form of brain washing, where everything that conflicts with his bizarre world-view is rejected as left-wing propaganda.
This does impair hs powers of discrimination, to the point where he sees me as a "typical" left-winger, which would have rather upset the real left-wingers of my acquaintance.
Certainly resisting enslavement is not insane, depending on how one does it. You propose killing people. I maintain that as insanity no matter what. I don't care who is being killed or why. Killing is wrong, and the wish to kill is insane, as is any logical process that leads to the conclusion that killing is not wrong to rectify political problems. I know that I might kill if I have to defend myself, but it isn't my intention to kill at the first opportunity to defend myself. That is the difference. It would still be wrong to kill in self defense, albeit understandable, and forgivable. Then again, everything is forgivable, even your hatefullness. I hope one day you can discover this, however improbable. However if you can pull it off, you will know the only freedom that exists, and the burden of your political religion will be ended.
I don't need to have control of it. I know what it is, and I know what it isn't. It isn't me. What I think, my views, my feelings, all of that isn't me. It is a meaningless and fleeting pattern of phenomena. You can no more gain control of it than I. But you worship the intellect and are thus confined to it, whereas I know it's limitations and can thus use it as a tool when desired, or ignore it when it's utility has reached its limits. There are other modes of knowledge than the rational intellect, you know, which isn't really a mode of knowing at all, just labeling.
Perhaps what I should have said, is that if you assume you have any idea of what I maintain as a political identity, you will be in err. This remains the truth, though you will go on assuming because you need to. I know why this is so. You do not.
You are quite incorrect. North Korea makes "1984" look like an understatement. There are other examples. Try reading Christopher Hitchens "Why Orwell Matters."
Anyway, what you dream of I maintain is exactly what "the several mewling anti-utopian novelists have posited."
As an architect of utopia, so filled with the eagerness to kill, don't you see that there is something wrong with this picture? You don't want to free or help anyone. You just want to be the enslaver yourself but the positions are all filled, and your damned jealous.
And so I expect you will argue that I was being a "rightist" when I voted for Al Gore? Then again, I'm sure Al Gore is way to much of a fascist right-wing racist for your liking.
You are evading my question. I asked why it is I am a liar for claiming to be a human from Earth. If you know something I don't, please divulge, as I would be most fascinated to hear about my alien origins.
But now you accuse me of things again. Please tell me exactly what my crimes are? How is it that I enslave the poor and oppressed racially disciminated against minority masses, while I pay the rent each month for my apartment, unable to afford a house because of the inflated prices conjured by Alan Greenspan and the CEO's of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, to keep the economy floating on borrowed money? How is that my crime? How is it my crime that the oil companies keep us mired in a backward energy system in order to enrich themselves, while I work in a government lab to research and develop cleaner and more efficient energy sources, as well as working with beaurocrats who are persistenly albeit in futility attempting to advocate for intelligent energy policies, while the Bush administration consistently attempts to zero our budgets, and every budget of any program remotely associated with reducing energy inefficiency and pollutant emissions from combustion processes. But I do this work despite having had opportunities to jump ship from public service into some high-profit bucket of dollars pocketing start up tech firm, for salaries 50% or more over what I get?
Please do explain exactly what my crimes are. Or perhaps they are only thought crimes? Since I barely participate in any activity that can remotely be called "the owners of the means of production," I fall squarely into the category of workers. Yet you claim that I am guilty of the crimes of the exploiters. Why? Because I levied a few criticisms at the ultra-leftists? That makes me a rightist, right? But I am guilty of only a thought-act, of positing a view. Yet you condemn me for this view, and are quick to lump me into the group that you are eager to kill. For having a thought. Oh but that's not it really. What irks you is that I am not a dumb enough worker to fall for your phony promises of liberation. It is the crime of seeing you for what you are, that is why I must be labeled a rightist and destroyed, isn't it?
This is the world you would create, for which you aspire and advocate. A world of killing people who don't think the party line, which is no thinking at all. You make the capitalists look like the good guys. That is what is so sad about the intellectually dishonest left these days. I was really quite liberal a few years ago, before I started putting the food on the table. But views like yours make me sick, and unable to associate with the left. The right is just as grisly in many ways and so I reject them as well in terms of considering any possibility of joining their parties, so I know where I stand. But you just go on assuming what you will. It's all you've got.
Good day!
--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@earthlink.net
Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
----------------- It's a time-honored method for doing away with thieves who persist.
----------------- Is your objection that death is too great a punishment for thieves who won't desist? That's stupid, I don't want to chain them in the garage and have to take care of them.
----------------- While a soft and fuzzy sentiment for movies, and telling small chldren before the age of reason, it is often quite impractical. When a person acts from rage or insanity, it is okay to be lenient, but when a person calculatedly sets about thievery merely to enrich himself at our expense, and when he believes such is his "right", (laughable), and will not desist from threat of death if he ever does so again, he simply makes it necessary that we kill him, unless we have an established means of keeping him chained up reliably and we can get his upkeep out of him in labor. Doing that is beyond our obligation if it does not suffice to deter future thieves of his sort, so killing is an important tool to deter crimes of calculated thievery and selfishness.
------------------------------------- Xtian guilt. Pitiful. Your lot was brainwashed with that by the rich who hijacked the religion as a tool of horrible nameless terror and guilt to keep their serfs in line. If someone cannot be made to be fair to others and stop trying to enslave them, by however circuitous and complex a contrived methodology, then they should be killed as we have promised, so that others of their ilk give it up and behave reasonably! Human life is only perfectable by the right set of laws, arrived at together by human reason unclouded by religion or the thieving bandit lords of old telling us superstition, and adminstered without exception, and with death as the only penalty. When you're finally right, you don't NEED to worry over severity, because when you're right you have the right to expect obediance from everyone to the rules you have agreed upon together, without oppression.
------------------------ You're blathering. Just because you can string words together without making logical sense, doesn't mean you're engaging in something else that's actually valid.
------------------------------ Irrelevant, you're either a duper, or a dupee.
------------------------------- They don't have the technology to make a "1984", they can't even keep their fires lit.
----------------------------- Total garbage. This is the crap claimed by every posturing little simp who's ever fallen off the brainwashing table of the rich. Your kind has been programmed to "achieve spirituality in the mold of civility" so well, that you don't even realize that this mold was created intentionally by Rightist brigands to BIND YOU TO THEM!
------------------------------- Abject nonsense. All I want is to live as the simplest of people in such a society, to have my lovers, my friends, and my hobbies, and not to have to worry about being cheated anymore and to never fear eviction again, or the deprivation of the rights TRUE Civil societies have, the right to care by others in adversity, and the guarantee of labor and of exactly fair recompense for my labor, right beside the rest of everyone else, and to see all the vile enemies of that great fairness be vanquished totally.
----------------------------------- No, I voted for him too, but only because he was the lesser evil.
See, he's an ignorant Liberal. He still happens to be a Capitalist. He still actually thinks that Capitalism can be made to be civil. He believes this mostly because he was made guilty for being rich, but also he was made terrified of being poor, and so this oxymoron, the imaginary impossibility of a benificent Capitalism, comforts him about both.
---------------- That's NOT ALL you are, liar, you're minimizing.
--------------- You DEFEND THEIR CRIMES! That makes you culpable for them!
------------------------------- Salvation is by faith, you fail to side with those who would end these criminals' crimes!
------------------------ You don't need killing, you're too useless to deserve much of anything except to ignore you till it's time to tell you your new rights and to go back to work, and forget you ever even having the gumption to say thanks when your REAl rights are returned to you and your purchasing power triples and your work week is reduced and you don't even have house payments or rent anymore!
--------------- I don't give a f*ck what they think, only what they say and do! And there is no "party line", there is only whether or not a person is actively threatening the first finally fair and decent society or not.
THAT'S worth defending from ANYTHING, even his stupid "freedom" of shitty lying uneducated moronic speech. I'm sorry, but NO ONE has the right to deluded or defraud others, and that IS what ANY speech opposing a TRULY DECENT society would do!
------------------------ YOU don't REALLY EVEN believe such crap. To you it is merely a metaphoric way of speaking, a modus loquendi, a way to maximize a minimal difference just to get attention.
-------------------- There have always been mugwumps, fence sitters, who couldn't decide to commit to any ideal, and who try to reject both for fear of being taken to the cleaners intellectually, terrified of being deceived, but finally yours is merely another form of cowardice.
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
Note that as an assumed middle-income individual, your biggest single expense is that of the government (where entitlements and/or welfare being an 'optional' function of the federal government are an incredibly large part of that cost.) The defense of the nation (one of the original and primary purposes of government) isn't really all that outlandish in comparison.
It is interesting where the 'socialist meccas' like France and Germany are also having problems with their budgets, and they don't even do a competent job of providing for their own defense. If they provided for their defense, it wouldn't really make that much difference to their budgets, because it is the morally destrictive socialist programs that cost so very much!!!
In the US, consider that a person making $80K/yr will be paying approx 38% (or more) to the federal government (assuming no major deductions -- perhaps assuming that you have paid off your house as a responsible individual.) For the state governments, you will pay typically 3-10% (or more) of your income. Also, there are various other taxes that punish small amounts of success (e.g. property tax, etc.)
By the time that all of the taxes are paid (for a middle income person), it isn't incredibly out-of-the norm to have paid 50% of your income!!!
So, when you have problems paying your bills for a month (due to unforseen expenses), remember all of the irresponsible people who aren't taking care of their own children (or too willing to have children without preparing adequately.)
It really isn't possible for the current wasteful government to provide many more services without additional damage against the middle income people. Already, the lower income individuals don't pay much tax in the scheme of things. The rich are already paying most of the tax bills (perhaps a little more can be coerced from them), and the middle income people could probably be pressured a little also. Perhaps we need to grab more money from the groups who really pay little or no income tax? (Those who make less than $20-$30K/yr.)
---------------------- They have the industrial output, they simply prefer to spend it on luxuries as long as they can.
------------------------- Social programs are EVIDENCE or morality, they don't DESTROY morality, except the stupid hidebound antisexual forms.
-------------------------------- Irrelevant, the Majority derives the right to tax from what it gives, the social system that permits ownership AT ALL, when the "natural" state is one of banditry and murder at every step! Whatever you are taxed was NEVER actually yours in the FIRST place, and it only causes trouble and confusion for you to even learn of it!
------------------------------ Gee, the same the poor pay in rent/tribute to the rich.
I say kill the rich who won't stop lying and claiming that they "own" all our houses, and own your own home by Majority Democratic fiat! WE ALL own the world, and its resources and land AND AEDIFICES collectively as our inheritance from ALL our common ancestors! The rich have no special right to them, they were born exactly as naked and stupid as we were, but they were handed a socio-economic situation that allowed them to steal for a living, rather than do HONEST work!!
-------------------------- People do what they must because of their circumstances of life, over which they have NO control. There is NO free will, we are a result of cause and effect in physics, and what we become comes directly from our experiences. You cannot change the tiniest thing you believe by some effort of whim/will, and you KNOW it! There is no such thing as "free will", it was invented to relieve the guilt of torturers in the Spanish Inquisition, pretending that people control what they believe, when they DON'T!! And what we do is a direct result of what we believe!
In short, we can change each other by the effect we can have on each other, however unopredictable, but we cannot change OURSELVES! It would be like lifting yourself into the air!
------------------------ Until everyone has virtually equal property and incomes, the class you speak of lies when it laughably calls itself "middle class"! And when we are equal, and our taxes are equal, then the services we get are also the same, and these services are impossible to obtain by ourselves!
---------------------- Nor should they, their contribution comes from the monies that the rich steal from them and for which the rich are more taxed!!!!!
------------------------ They are stealing it from the poor to pay it, you mean!!
---------------------------- Absurd, exactly because, by their thefts, the rich already steal that income from the poor, which is why we come after the rich for it!
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
The cost of defense isn't really that great (very few defense plants per-se in the US.) It is that the LAZY-ASS socialist meccas choose to suckle off the American teat.
Don't you understand anything about the psychological aspects of enabling (or encouraging) stupid behavior? Of course you don't. (It isn't really 'morality' or 'ethics' that are actually destroyed, it is more that STUPID behavior is encoraged by socalist programs.)
Socialism is plain and clear evidence of social decay -- whereby the basis of growth and encouraging productive behavior (and discouraging stupidity) is long forgotten. So, it is VERY CLEAR that the regression in France (and somewhat Germany -- and other wakko-leftist regimes) is progressing quite sadly. (Geesh, they obviously don't even learn from their mistakes WRT the anti-Jew attitudes.) The 'new' mistake of embracing the terrorists (e.g. Saddam) seems to result from an overwhelming growing stupidity.
Your ideas and expressions are so far to the far right that I rarely find myself in agreement with them, but here I nod my head. Hmm, perhaps not so much lazy as greedy like Steve says. For example, surely you wouldn't call South Koreans lazy, nor socialist either, yet Rumsfield says they are dramatically underspending on defense weaponry. This, even with the serious threat of North Korea. Not lazy, they simply prefer to spend their money elsewhere if we fill the gap. As Steve said.
OK, I knew finding intelligence in your statements had to be a short-lived phenomena, especially since you consider much of the most basic spending a society decides to spend on itself to be socialist.
Asking a Rumsfeld if you're spending enough on lethal weapons and tear gas is a bit like asking your barber if you need a haircut.
More by googling on "Sunshine policy" +blocking.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
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That is very sad that you believe that I am right-wing, because I am quite centrist (believing both in safety nets and coherent defense.) What I dislike is the loss of self-reliance and the misassignment of American greed to America instead of the corrupt French (Yes, it isn't just the government.) We have a sector of people (including some of Hollywood) who are also quite mentally/socially corrupt (in the sense of being STUPID and not really morally.)
ENABLING stupid behavior is one of the biggest strengthing aspects of socialism. The ethic that creates dependency and entitlement is a self sustaining 'opiate' of socialism. (A little socialism isn't a bad thing, however dishonest wakko socialism typical of the European left isn't good.)
Moderation is the key -- and typical leftists aren't moderate anymore. (JFK was moderate. Dean/Kucinich/Cephardt are either VERY dishonest or immoderate.)
The US left has radicalized because the centrists have lost interest in the leftist lies. (The right has also had similar problems.)
This is why I am a radical centrists, where moderation is the ONLY way to maintain a stable and healthy populace. Creating dependency doesn't maintain a stable system.
John S. Dyson wrote: || That is very sad that you believe that I am right-wing, because || I am quite centrist (believing both in safety nets and coherent || defense.) What I dislike is the loss of self-reliance and || the misassignment of American greed to America instead of the || corrupt French (Yes, it isn't just the government.) We have || a sector of people (including some of Hollywood) who are also || quite mentally/socially corrupt (in the sense of being STUPID || and not really morally.) || snip snip
I bet you have never been to France and neither speak French. I'm living here only 10 miles away from the border, which has been abolished since a couple of years and I often go shopping there, as here in Italy we are a bit short of diversity. The French make excellent croissants, which I deep freeze and warm up for breakfast, they have also an incredible variety of goat-cheeses and a lot of other delicatessen. People are just as polite and friendly as anywhere else, now there is growing a number of environmentalists. In Nice, Cannes and Monte Carlo you can meet a lot of celebrities when there is Formula1 or a film festival. I have not heard them speaking bad about Americans, we have learned to tolerate each others customs and habits, and Europe slowly grows into a big single country with less chauvinism and nationality. We have even lost our fear of Russia and they are as much Europeans as we are. I thing this is a far better approach than your utterly uninformed nationalistic aggressive rage and poison you are spreading here.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy
electronic hardware designer
And ALL of it *smell* like eastern France? No thanks.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Yeah? Well, who can say, maybe someday after we get over our extreme bout of nationalism one of our companies will make a killing opening up some new deodorant markets.
The French indeed could use some deodorant, but that-to-which-I-refer is due to a poor sewage system... really rank and noticeable as you drive across the Rhein into France.
Then, of course, there's the Social Security Office on every corner... just what we need here in the good ol' USA ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I wouldn't normally be replying at all, given the source (Sloman), but...
Sloman says, "...you are a bunch of over-taxed suckers."
We are *far* less taxed than you socialist-mecca village idiots.
I already see the signs of your economies going to hell, and you are already reverting to blaming the Jews, so I look forward to bombing you off the face of the earth.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
This shows how inadequate an incapable most of the other nations are. I doubt that any European nation other than Switzerland or perhaps UK could actually defend themselves on their own soil.
Yes -- you do show some serious paranoid/incompetent thinking.
Actually, it has some problems, but our productivity is still pretty damned good. The biggest problem is that your own nations are mostly basket cases -- IN-EXTREMIS, both culturally and economically. Geesh, are the Europeans starting to go around Jew bashing yet? Sure looks like that is the trend.
In a funny (in a sad way), you have demonstrated your rot that I have been trying to explain to you.
If you had read the rest of my tripe, you might have noticed that our slightly higher tax rates buy us better social welfare, which pays off in higher labour mobility and productivity. You won't believe this, but less blinkered lurkers should check out Will Hutton's "The World We're In" (buy it from
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If you knew more than the bare minimum about the increasing numbers of anti-Semitic incidents Europe, you'd be aware that the perpetrators seem to be mostly second-generation Arab immigrants, reacting against a perceived anti-Islamic campaign by the U.S. and its right-wing allies.
Granting your enthusiasm for bombing some of their countries of origin off the face of the earth, one can understand their distress (while deploring their actions), though it is difficult to see why they should be targeting Jews (just one more of your right-wing allies) rather than the axis of intolerance itself.
Maybe they believe in some comic conspiracy theory in which Sharon is Dubbya's puppet master - though this can be trivially falsified by noting that Dubbya's nose is still of perfectly normal length.
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