OOOKAY- This Explains Everything- A Woman at the Helm of the Sewol

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That is the critical point. If boys and girls are brought up with the opportunity to learn without a lot of stupid baggage based on sexual stereotypes, they can become equally good at whatever career or hobby they choose to follow. My own hobbies include dressmaking; a friend learned to weld so that she could mend her car and make replacement parts for her AGA cooker. There is no reason why we shouldn't learn to do these things if we want to.

I know a woman who would have made a fantastically good engineeer, but she was brought up under the influence of a mother and a maiden aunt who would have been horrified at the prospect of her having anything to do with engineering (if they had ever been told what it was) She was brought up to be 'nice' and 'ladylike' ...and unemployable.

I also know a man who holds a senior engineering position, having worked his way up from the shop floor. He is absolutely clueless when it comes to designing, planning, fault-finding or even understanding how things work and would have been far better off in a job where the excellent interpersonal skills which he posseses would have served him well. Unfortunately he has been brought up in an atmosphere where he would feel his masculinity was threatened by the mere hint that he might be good at 'womens' work.

I would not suggest that someone with no muscles (male or female) would be good at heavy labour or that someone with no mental aptitude (male or female) should take an intellectual job, but I would say that there is no reason why anyone should have their abilities and interests stifled by being forced to conform to stereotypes.

Is there any indication that she had not?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ 
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) 
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply to
Adrian Tuddenham
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On a sunny day (Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:17:35 +0100) it happened snipped-for-privacy@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote in :

The ship sank.

:-)

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

That proves that the ship's cat wasn't properly trained in mouse-catching and it allowed the mice to gnaw through the bottom of the ship.

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~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ 
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) 
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply to
Adrian Tuddenham

On a sunny day (Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:51:26 +0100) it happened snipped-for-privacy@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote in :

No it was a steel ship.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Are you attempting to being facts into this discussion?

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~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ 
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) 
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply to
Adrian Tuddenham

On a sunny day (Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:38:19 +0100) it happened snipped-for-privacy@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote in :

The 'r' is just right of the 'e'.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Do you really think Korean women are any different from Anglo women??? LOL!

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

I think that males have an inborn advantage in visual-spatial and math skills, and females have an advantage in language and social skills. But that's statistical, and there's so much normal-distribution overlap that it's unwise to pre-judge individuals.

Lawrence Summers got canned as president of Harvard for speculating about this.

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One of his arguments is that it's not the centroid of the normal distribution that places men in the highest positions, it's the width.

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John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation
Reply to
John Larkin

You're someone to talk about typing skills.

Reply to
krw

I doubt that anyone gets to steer a ship in dangerous waters without being well aware of the risks of excessive turns at speed. Equally the load should not have been so poorly secured in the hold that it could shift and sink the ship. Back in the bad old days they used to tart up dodgy ships with a lick of new paint load them with unstable clinker and send them out to sink as "coffin ships" to claim the insurance.

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Plimsol eventually put a stop to it, but as many ship owners were MPs who viewed wrecking ships as easy money he had a very hard time of it.

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There is some hard wired bias in visual-spatial but mathematics is more nuanced as Cambridge found out when they started admitting women to degrees. In 1890 Phillipa Fawcett daughter of a famous suffragette who founded Newnham College beat the best man by 13% in Tripos.

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She was reported as above the top scoring Senior Wrangler (only men counted) and not properly accorded the honour that went with it.

Especially when clear counter examples can be found in science and to a much lesser extent in engineering. This is an example of a test that determines the extent of male or female characteristics in the brain.

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Some things are easier for one sex than the other.

To a large extent it is driven by the old boy network - which also applies to the UK parliament in general and the present Tory Cabinet in particular (basically they almost all went to Eton and Oxford).

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Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Correct observation :-)

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Whatever distributions the statistics might show, they are no justification for preventing people from doing things which they personally may be good at, even though the majority of their sex/gender/race/age group etc might be hopeless at the same task. The statistics should be used as an indicator of trends, not as the driver of them.

Preventing a good engineer from getting proper training and earning a living because she happens to have been born female is a disgrace to the engineering profession that we have still not managed to stamp out.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ 
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) 
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply to
Adrian Tuddenham

That mouse sure had big teeth!

Jamie

Reply to
Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.

Moon mice.

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(near the bottom)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

This entire debate is not on point, since women are hired by affirmative action, often. If white men were hired by affirmative action, then they too would lack competence. Several days ago, the Supremes struck down affirmative action in school admissions. Not sure about companies, but it sets a trend. Sex ("Gender") or skin color have nothing to do with competence. Strikingly, the asian lobby (mainly in California) hates AA, since they are hard workers. UC Berkeley is up to 40% asian, but their percentage in the population is much lower.

Reply to
haiticare2011

Okay, so the 21st century method of same is to simply put to sea with a crew of women.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

Not JL's point. Rather the opposite, in fact.

Who is stopping females from getting an engineering education? Do you live in Iran?

Reply to
krw

They upheld the Michigan law banning "the use of racial criteria in college admissions." The Court was not concerned at all about affirmative action, they were focused on jurisdictional authority of the lower court versus vot er approved referendum. That was what the all the legal argumentation was a bout: courts attempting to overrule law voted upon by referendum. "The justices found 6-2 that a lower court did not have the authority to se t aside the measure approved in a 2006 referendum supported by 58% of voter s."

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

All women "lack competence" because some are hired because of affirmative action? All blacks are likewise incompetent? Certainly some are (His Majesty BO-I is a good example) but are you extrapolating that to all?

Are you talking about the decision that came down today? If so, that's a rather strange reading of the ruling.

Go figure. Blacks do, however, because it "helps" them.

Reply to
krw

That actually sounds pretty good to me.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

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