-------------- Nope, you aren't. That's just a lie you tell yourself, based on finders-keepers-muggers reasoning you've been brainwashed with, like telling yourself no one will notice if you steal. One one raised in a tribe could ever think that way without spontaneous desperate guilt and shame. You are merely a collector of funds because the rich thieves do that so they can lie about where the money all goes.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
----------- Not mine, you must mean yours. But you're wrong. Anyone whose labor we need, as in: We'd have to do it ourselves if they didn't, then they are worth precisely the same per hour as anyone, YOU simply wish to CHEAT them because YOU imagine they are less educated and thus "less able to know they've been cheated", it doesn't make you any less of a thief! In fact it makes you a coward as well!
------------------------ Bullshit, I carefully keep my wage at an American average as an issue of conscience.
-------------------- Nonsense. Doesn't happen, quit deluding yourself.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
OK. You mean to say if I don't have the power it does not make a difference if I live in Cuba or the USA. Is that your view?
You are contridicting yourself again. A set of entities can be the same as a group of entities which you say is OK here. But you said is not OK above. What do you mean?
I was assuming he meant what he said. You seem to have deeper insight and make up your own meanings.
Should it not be if I "were" a rude asshole?
Bill
----------------------- It's a small planet, not big enough for fair statistical examples, and history was just invented last week. Grow up. We lived in a Communist State of Nature in tribes of 30-50 for 100,000 years, or we wouldn't be here.
We didn't used to be nearly so accomplished, not fleet of foot, sharp of tooth, powerful of muscle, nor could we smell or see worth a damn, nor did we have petroleum or metallurgy, we had to survive by our social ability to organize and run toward ANY danger to the VERY LEAST of us in order to to seal the social contract and live as the FIRST species with a Shared Awareness.
And we had to do so with nothing but rocks and sharp sticks and attitude!! And still we made every other predator terrified of us by 100,000 years ago.
Now THAT'S one VERY powerful Communist Social Contract! Nobody said, I don't wanna defend your ass, just mine! They would have found themselves ALONE and then DEAD!
We have quite literally EVOLVED to live Communistically.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
--------------- Nope, they differ from the design markedly.
--------------- And you're a lying disingenuous piece of crap.
------------------- That's what Capitalism does, why do you imagine that another cult of personality could ever be a communism. Ridiculous.
-------------------- That's only your lie, what YOU MEAN is that shit like you will SEEK to degenerate any such system into a dishonest opportunity to enhance your personal wealth. This only proves that such as you should be dealt with by summary execution if they step out of line.
----------------------- All honest fair systems will attract criminals who need killing. That is the phenomenon of which you refer, and none other.
--------------------- You mean till all the thieving criminals like you are eliminated as opposed to the current society that permits them to breed like rats.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
O. K.
I'll take that as a no.
I see it all now Steve: In your view, the only reward for working verrrrry hard for the collective is to get lots of food, and become verrrrry fat.
No other form of compensation is acceptable. Right?
-Chuck
But in my Utopia everybody is strong and confident, everything is competitive on a friendly, sports-like basis, and everybody *knows* they are equal, even though some people are acknowledged to have management skills (like the person I work for) or just worker-skills (like me.) This vision is far beyond worries about class and economics: it's about everybody knowing themselves for what they really are, and liking it.
The thing I don't like about Communism is that is must be coercive to enforce a vision of equality without addressing the realities of equality. Hence the necessity for killing.
John
Who decides how much work I have to do to be *allowed* to be fed?
Does the amount and quality of work I do have any relationship to how well I will be *allowed* to live?
If your answer is yes, you are describing capitalism. If your answer is no, I will work the barest minimum amount I can to get by. The quality of my work will suck.
-Chuck
This may sound really simple but the perfect model is natural law. The only collectives you see in nature is in the ant, termite, and bee species. You don't see chipmunks collecting nuts for a winter collective for redistribution to the lazy chipmunk's front. It's every chipmunk for himself.
When children bust open a pinata at a birthday party the kid with the fastest gathering skills gets the booty of candy! The commie kid sits back lazily and complains that he got nothing because the system was unfair and favored the rich.
When fish start acting helpless or lazy they get attacked and eaten.
If everyone just took care of themselves ala Ayn Rand everything would be fine.
I would bet it all that if our resident commie wasn't a frustrated underacheiving misfit and earned a real income, all the goofy, blame the rich, diatribes would dissapear.
snipped-for-privacy@vorel.com (Product developer) wrote: [snip]
That's why the chipmunks are still living in the trees.
Tim
-- Love is a travelator.
What's wrong with living in trees?
-Chuck
---------------------- You SHOULD take that as a YES! The Human Species!
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
------------- What? You need a wafer-thin mint or something? ;->
No, the labor that needs to be done by everyone, especially the rich parasites fresh to the labor market, is the production of consumer goods, not merely quality food, but VCR's, TiVos, Monitors, Computers, Stereos, better refigerators, washing machines, dryers, homes, building materials, furnishings, industrial tools and robots, etc., and gradually re-educate the work-force to maintaining robots and automated manufacture and farming/husbandry.
Once we eliminate the privilege of the indolent rich, and make them work like the rest of us, wecan also eliminate those jobs the rich have had us doing that only keep track of what the poor owe the rich, eliminating most accounting positions and sending those workers back to be retrained into production workers making things everyone actually NEEDs, and most of us will be far richer in buying power than we have ever been before, given that new infusion of people into the labor force of actual production, instead of meaningless paper make-work to support and manipulate the illicit privileges of wealth!!
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
---------------- Your "vision" is merely your lie. Yours is the delusion of the slave-master, that his slaves surely love him because they suck up to him. He never really gets it that they would kill him if they could get away with it.
-------------------- They don't.
Nobody has to be other than fair to everyone else, whether they like it or not. In my "Utopia" nobody will be deliriously happy, they just won't be tortured economically by others who are greedy and thieving. They will no longer have to worry about being evicted, ever, for ANY reason. If they want to skip work, they can, they simply won't get anymore food till they do. They get to work for what they want, piece by piece, doing real productive work to make the things everyone wants, and to order whatever they want next, and those orders become the list of the goods the People order to be produced next!
---------------------- The only thing that is required is fairness to everyone, even if some minority doesn't WANT to treat others fairly. You seem to be one of those elitests who think you somehow deserve better than everyone else, and entirely without any justification.
There will always be greed and selfishness, but the only important thing to do about it is to suppress it violently and make it totally impossible for it to succeed. We do that now with our laws, we just don't do it to everyone!! We will change the law.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
My favorite author.
...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | |
-------------- Try it next winter.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
--------------------- The rest of us who ALSO have to.
----------------------- The amount IS the only measure of work. It's judged by the hour by your fellows believing you made the same honest effort THEY did.
------------------------ If YOU think it's that simple, then you're a simpleton.
Capitalism is "finders-keepers-stealers" the only ones who get rich are those who don't actually work. This steals buying power from those who actually do.
---------------------------- If you imagine that you'll keep your job that way then you'll be digging bad ditches in the rain and cold and be old before your time for your laziness.
If you think my Communism has no "incentives" then you forgot ALL about the NEGATIVE ones.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
: > If everyone just took care of themselves ala Ayn Rand everything would : > be fine. : -------------------------------- : She's dead, she must not have taken very good care of herself.
Rand was born on February 2, 1905 in St. Petersburg, Russia. She moved to the United States in 1926 (arriving February 18) and became a naturalized US citizen on March 13, 1931. She died of heart failure on March 6, 1982 in New York City.
So she lived to 77... She would be 99 now if she had survived NYC!
Better than average.
------------ Nope, for that time merely average. She was a hopeless crank who wrote the kind of books loved by adolescents who never again get their guts up to read many other books after that, having exhausted their mind and hormonal supply. Which is why, like comic books, her stuff is the only thing they have ever "read". Most people who know of her books think she's an idiot, prating irrationally at every turn and asserting her notion of supposed "objectivism" that simply isn't, and is more obviously subjective and biased than anything else.
-Steve
-- -Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
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