Semi OT: Detroit leads the way in EV technology

Big time toughies! I want to have a pony. I want to have fifty ponies and an Airbus A380 to take them to the pony show in.

But I do recognize that the world as a whole can't live my profligate, exorbitant pony lifestyle without really messing things up going down the line.

With nearly a billion people in the world undernourished, I find it very difficult to summon up the effort to give a shit what particular fashion of lavish urban or suburban lifestyle the average American consumer "wants."

Fed from the magic abiogenesis process that keeps it bubbling up out of the Earth's mantle forever, I suppose.

This is really a nice planet.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

Disagree. In urban areas EVs can solve quite a few problems when it comes t o smog and AGW. First of all, I used to drive 23 miles each way to work, so the thing with 53 miles range would be iffy. But then I got a job 7.6 mile s away. Then it would have worked for me. What's more, in traffic jams that turn into a damn parking lot they do not have to idle. I don't know how th ey run the heat or AC at that time, it must cost some energy but an ICE idl ing is probably more.

What about a pizza delivery person ? Stop go stop go, this is where an EV c an do better because of the no idle. There are little pickup trucks all ove r here with the logo from an auto parts store all over it, they usually onl y deliver locally, to pro mechanics at garages. Many places that do that ha ve multiple locations and will send the parts from the nearest one that has them in stock.

Granted, some planning is needed. If you have to drive farther than a certa in distance then you take the ICE powered vehicle. Common sense.

I agree that EVs are not yet ready for the mainstream. Teslas start at seve nty grand, most people cannot afford it. Even the Prius is not cheap. But i t does have more range and is less than half of the cheapest Tesla. However from what I hear if you punch the Tesla it will rip your neck off. People like that.

Well, VCRs went from over a grand down to under a hundred. What's more, per formance got better. We can only expect for this to happen here. The proble m IS going to be generating the power, which means we need nuclear power. I f you burn coal and oil to generate the electricity to charge these things you are back where you started. You are using the same amount of BTUs.

Should probably hire the French to build the nuclear power plants. They hav e had them as long as we have and never had an incident. (AFAIK, correct me if I am wrong, but they got alot of them)

There is one BIG problem with EVs though. The batteries will eventually go bad and their disposal is an environmental nightmare. There needs to be a w ay to recycle the material used in the batteries for it to really be "green ". I mean, if all the fish die in ten years we really have gained nothing. And these people will just throw them in landfills and there goes the water table. Poisoned wells, they used to kill you over that shit in the old day s. Like fracking, that is going to be a big bite in the ass. I think a coup le of states have already outlawed it.

Anyway, maintenance free lead acid batteries do pretty well these days, but the storage to weight ratio is not that good and they cannot be deep cycle d unless designed for that purpose. They are better environmentally though. I wonder at this point how efficient those motors are. If they were more e fficient maybe we would not need such poisonous batteries. But then the oth er problem with lead acid is that it cannot charge as fast. They are talkin g a fifteen minute charge ? Lead acid batteries would explode.

But time marches forward, ever. Eventually technology will get to the point where you can go 400 miles on a charge, which takes five minutes, and the batteries last for at least five years and are low cost. And all power is t horium reactors which pollute less. And then self deriving cars will let pe ople text and talk on the phone on their way to work and cause less traffic jams because the car will know to get into the lane it needs to be in befo re it gets there.

Stupid people cause these traffic jams. They stay in the fast lane until th ree feet from their exit and have to hold up traffic to get over four lanes in a minute, but can't do it. And you can't drive through them (though I w ish you could)so you and everyone behind you is held up by their stupidity. Self driving cars will save energy in and of themselves. It is different w hen there is a wreck and lanes are closed off, the traffic jams I see are t otally caused by people's stupidity. Too many lane changes too late. Know w hen I get into the lane to get off the highway ? About a mile before, or mo re. It is so much easier, and these assholes think they are saving time but really they are costing time.

Maybe we should just have public cars. Get on the highway and get out at yo ur exit, go to a parking lot and check a car out and got to work, then afte r bring it back and get back on the highway and go home. At your exit there is a parking lot, you only drive a mile or two.

In Cleveland there is what's called "Park n ride". Quite a few people use i t if they work downtown. First of all nobody wants to drive downtown at rus h hour, and secondly, some places have the unmitigated gall to charge to fo r parking when you work there. So they go to an RTA station and take a rapi d, which is like a subway but not underground, and maybe a bus or even walk to work from where they get off. Then their personal car is at the Park n ride when they get off work. Incidentally, the rapid transit runs off of el ectricity.

But it doesn't go everywhere. I had a good connection at Ford and in the 19

70s could have gotten an $18 an hour job sweeping the floor but that was th e Lorain plant and even though I did not hate driving at the time did not w ant to go that far to work. I would have to get up earlier and get home lat er. Either move there or forget it.

Another thing that hampers the propagation of EVs is the long commutes. I' ve met people who drove alot farther than I ever would, EVERY DAY to get to work and back. A bunch of industry that is left moved to more favorable co mmunities, the burbs. The people who need the jobs, and in some cases are t he ones who can do them are decimated and live in the inner city. So they d rive 60 miles a day. And then we got others who work downtown and live out in the sticks and they have to drive 60 miles a day.

The whole world is illogical and to expect it to change overnight is unreas onable. Just like with this election, neither one of them can do very much except start a war. And there will be no miracle breakthrough that cures po verty or anything else. History has taught us that in spades.

I don't know how to fix it, do you ?

to smog and AGW. First of all, I used to drive 23 miles each way to work, so the thing with 53 miles range would be iffy. But then I got a job 7.6 mi les away. Then it would have worked for me. What's more, in traffic jams th at turn into a damn parking lot they do not have to idle. I don't know how they run the heat or AC at that time, it must cost some energy but an ICE i dling is probably more.

Even for 56 miles a day, 230 miles a week, 920 miles a month, 11040 miles a year, with typical 35 miles per gallon and $3 per gallon. You pay $946 fo r gas. Your EV would cost more than $2000 to $3000 a year.

You find a way to cut your gas bill by 2/3, and that's my point. Engineers tend to drive less and find other ways to save gas. If you spend too much time driving, you won't have time to do engineering.

can do better because of the no idle.

Agree. But that's not an engineer. I was answering to why "electronic guy s drive no EV".

probably not,

the finite supply we have been given is a very nice gift.

and we do need to come up with a workable alternative before it runs out.

fortunately it looks like we have a least a few decades

M M

but if you now have to pay full insurance costs for two vehicles, compared to using one vehicle that can do everything.....it doesn't pay.

M

The long German words are just smaller German words with the spaces removed from between them. I couldn't find your example, but here is another one.

Luftspeicherbrennraum

Luft - air speicher - cell brennraum - combustion chamber

Not really a new word.

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Rick C

Kinda like the words they make up for new diseases and drugs. Germans are just more used to it.

As usual John reads what he wants to read. I've seen a number of reviews for Teslas with well over 100 kmiles with minimal battery degradation. Here is the specs on the 8 year warranty.

60 kWh - 125,000 miles (200,000 km) 85 kWh - unlimited miles/km

So get the 85 kWh battery and run the piss out of the battery. Replacement is free for 8 years.

After that there is an option for a $12,000 replacement on the 85 kWh batter, less for the 60 kWh unit. They seem to count years rather than miles or charges.

I've also read that they do a battery exchange because while the batteries may no longer be suitable for auto use, they can still be used for many other purposes and are not chucked.

Well, you can say that, but for many those are the only options. Oil actually is doing pretty well at the moment.

Batteries are so much better than gas in many ways. They don't pollute environment, they don't leak fuel into the ground leaving toxins to show up in nearly every well in the nation and they don't blow up and catch file being transported to the stations. But John doesn't care about any of that.

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Rick C

I looked into geothermal. Trouble was it had no cap on the cost to install. They don't know what they will find when they dig to install the loop and they aren't taking the risk. Too bad, I now know my well has water just 10 feet below the ground here. Likely they could have installed the loop without any trouble. But still, they are *very* expensive. I seem to recall some $25,000 starting point compared to $5,000 for a conventional system.

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Rick C

The ICE of your Audi has zero energy density. In the end the total vehicle weight is similar.

The losses in the ICE are *huge* and far outweigh the total losses in electricity generation, distribution, conversion and batteries.

Eye of the beholder.

Exactly. The ICE is so poor a power plant that its weight dominates the car it is in. An electric motor is much more efficient and has a much lower weight for the same amount of power. It doesn't need to belch hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen either.

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Rick C

Ok, that is more like what I've read. Running a car on wall socket electricity is about a quarter to a half the cost of burning gas in a car. Makes sense. The components in the car are very efficient while the ICE is hugely inefficient. The process of extracting energy from a carbon based fuel can be done in a huge power plant where they can do it much more efficiently to make electricity which powers the very efficient cars with a net savings of fuel.

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Rick C

Sounds like a choice of car issue... and irrelevant. John denies AGW so he doesn't care how much fuel he burns in his guzzler.

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Rick C

Yeah, I've always wondered about that. Does the insurance company's risk double if I buy two cars? Sure, they should get something extra, but double? You can get a multi-car discount and the insurance rates are a function of your annual mileage on each car, not the total. So you will save some compared to double. I claim under 5k miles per year and get lower rates because of that. Haven't gotten the mult-car discount yet. In fact, my nearly 20 year old truck isn't covered by comprehensive or collision so the rates will go up hugely on a new vehicle I care about replacing.

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Rick C

Since when is insurance *not* prepaid?

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Rick C

Do you live somewhere that electricity is *not* taxed? I read that in the UK I think it was, they were talking about a wind power tax.

How does the government subsidize electricity??? Where can I get my free electricity?

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Rick C

If you do the math you will find running heat and AC is a tiny fraction of the energy for moving the car. So it can nearly be ignored unless you spend more time sitting than moving in your commute.

So when is the EV not advantageous?

Now that they have a 200+ mile range, I would need something more maybe once in 5 years. If needed I can rent, or better, plan my trip with superchargers in mind.

The Prius is a hybrid and has the same range of a fully gas vehicle. Many hybrids use both the gas and the electric engines for full power. I don't see any need to do cervical damage to anyone.

Not true, do your research.

So don't dispose of them. When they aren't suitable for cars, they are still usable for other uses. When they aren't good for that, then they can be recycled. Do your research.

Do your research.

My god, you are 30 years behind current battery technology. Research!

Put me down for the thorium reactor. Can I get one in my home?

Trains are great when they are near your destination, but even for commuting they aren't the solution for everyone. Also they are expensive to build and hard to expand as a city grows. Here they are extending the Metro to Dulles airport right now. It's been under construction since 2008 (planning started in 2000) with a projected completion of 2019 at a total cost of $5.684 billion estimated. How many gallons of gas is that?

Why is 60 miles a day a problem for EVs?

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Rick C

Wyoming of all places