OT: Old Mozilla to new Thunderbird, how to get emails over?

Good package management never touches files that aren't native to the package, for example "joergCMOS.lib". Plus I always keep backups and never, ever, let any program update itself automatically without me starting that process. That stuff could put you out of business for a whole did (and I've heard that Windows updates have).

That's essentially what the gurus said was the only way out other that working as root, put libs in $HOME. Not my kind of method though. But it's water under the bridge because while trying it all out I found some other things in this CAD software that I cannot live with and those are more hardcore issues.

--
Regards, Joerg

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That seems ... unlikely, although not completely impossible. It's more common that the issue is the need for the directory to be writable (and system directories will typically only be writable be root unless you explicitly change them).

It's conceivable that a program might not cope well with having its system directory modified (e.g. if it uses its own catalogue rather than just scanning the directory, or if it treats "system" libraries differently to "user" libraries), but that would apply even if you were running as root.

OTOH, a program might have some built-in "sanity" checks, e.g. refusing to load files from the system directory if they aren't owned by root. This is uncommon, but not entirely unheard of (sendmail does a fair bit of this, although you can override it via the DontBlameSendmail option; the name should provide a clue as to why they added this feature).

On a sunny day (Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:57:00 -0800) it happened Joerg wrote in :

directory?

I used to record some westerns, John Wayne stuff, like that, maybe still have some on disk. At some point, except for some real pieces of art, you have seen it all. And justification of genocide on does not jive with me anymore. But then, may the strongest one win, it is nature. That brings me to Unix over (not versus) Microsoft crap. They, MS, did not start out so bad, bought some CP/M clone like operating system, and named it MS DOS, got IBM to sell it with their PCs. That basically killed CP/M (CP/M was actually better then MS DOS in some way, more flexible). PCs were too small for something bigger. Then they added a GUI, win 3.1 on top of MS DOS. But they got competition from DR DOS (digital research), I ran win 3.1 on top of DR DOS for example. DR DOS was far better then MS DOS, and had a nice user interface. So they then had to make it so 'MS Windows' could no longer run on the competition, so they basically build some of MS DOS into the GUI system, so no longer a separate MS DOS. If you realize that DOS stands for 'disk operating system', and that they integrated that into a GUI, and a GUI is basically an *application*, then you would see that that was already the first sign of a ever more complex labyrinth of interconnected stuff without a clear structure or philosophy. So that crap was win 95. It had all the problem of MS DOS, and all the problems of a bad GUI, combined together. Of course the code could no longer be improved, spaghetti knots and 16 bit old dos routines what not, mixed together, so from then on they needed to mix a new formula all the time, win98, win 2000, win xp, vista, win 7, few more I forgot about, all with feature limited sub-versions. The other side was Unix. Unix, I fist worked with it in 1979, so 30 years ago, took a big flight once Linux brought out a simple clone of it. It has a sane structure, the OS is separated from the applications and GUI, nice and clean interface, and no real limitations, source code available, portable to almost any platform. I see people here talking about Linux and 'folders'. It makes me look up to the sky and say help. Note that the GUI on top of kernel, the OS, is Xwindows, and the 'folders' is just whatever way the *APPLICATION* running on Xwindows wants to show you the directory structure, there are a zillion 'window managers' and 'file managers' in 'Linux'. The name Linux is often used for the whole collection of stuff, but that is just a choice by the people who distributed your version of 'Linux', the kernel is what is at the basis of it all, and the only part that Linus actually is involved in as far as I know, the 'kernel' is what you could perhaps call the 'basic operating system', with a lot of drivers for the hardware, it is the interface to the hardware, and provides services to all the stuff running on it.

My recommendation is REALLY that you read a decent book (although I am against books in this electronic age, but then if you only have Adobe reader on a MS platform maybe a book is faster), and read up on the basic Unix system. How it is controlled by a shell. Read about bash, and it's command syntax. Read that book, like I did read that book almost 30 years ago.... Nothing has changed! It is not like a new commercial version every few years like MS spits out, and the poor ignorant sheep buy, and buy and buy, ripped of a hundred dollar or more at the time for a 20 cent DVD copy! That slows their system even more every time, forces them to buy more hardware every time, NO! Unix, the study of it, is a true lifetime investment. Anyways, the procedure is this : Become root (log in as root), start an root xterm in some 'Linux' versions, if /this/is/the/directory/in/question_here_the_stuff_is Look up the user name you want to have access to the stuff in that directory. Type in the xterm: chown username:users /this/is/the/directory/in/question_here_the_stuff_is where 'users' is the group, if any, that username belongs to, type: man chown You can have a look in /etc/passwd to see what usernames and groups there are, and what belongs to what.

Or, if that still gives problems, change permissions in the whole chain recursively: chown -R username:users /this/is/the/directory/in/question_here_the_stuff_is And, if you are a weakling, log out as root, and become an impotent user.

Copyright (c) Jan Panteltje 2009-always All Rights Reserved.

Joerg Inscribed thus:

I think that the way a program is installed (Linux) has a profound effect. For instance a program installed as root is not available to a user unless the permissions are changed in order to allow that. So I suspect that a lot of your problems are down to not having installed the program as a user.

I belive Unbuntu is not a good distribution for the more savey user because it tries too hard to prevent a new user from "shooting themselves in the foot" so to speak. Some other distributions are a little more intelligent in this respect.

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Nobody Inscribed thus:

I thought I was the only one who did that trick. :-)

Agreed. I said as much with regard to Ubuntu.

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Ok, but libraries in a CAD program should normally not be considered system-level stuff. You are supposed to customize there.

Now if someone could tell Thunderbird ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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In which case they should not be placed in system directories. Unfortunately, all to many do.

Cheers

Ian

directory?

some on disk.

system, and named it MS DOS,

DOS was hands down the best OS ever, IMHO. Probably still is, although QNX is another robust one which I was never able to crash despite trying hard (to qualify it for a product).

more flexible).

Yep, that's when it went downhill. It's been too long ago but I think the Mosaic browser had to be run from Win 3.1 while CompuServe email was good old DOS and thus never crashed.

of DR DOS for example.

Best thing since sliced bread back then was a DOS multi-tasker, IIRC from Logitech. It came as a free bonus disk with some product. You could easily hop between CAD and MS-Word without any Windows-OS, as long as you added some more memory to the PC (which was friggin' pricey). So I never saw the sense in any sort of Windows.

competition,

separate MS DOS.

integrated that

that was already the first sign

structure or philosophy.

There's a reason I sat out operating systems like that. For me it was: DOS -> NT4.0 Server -> Win2k -> XP. That's where it stopped (for now).

together.

dos routines

the time,

feature limited sub-versions.

Linux brought out a simple clone of it.

nice and clean interface,

platform.

Doesn't matter, it's just a language and age thing. I usually say directory, upon which everyone knows I am over 40.

just whatever way the *APPLICATION*

zillion 'window managers' and 'file managers' in 'Linux'.

just a choice by the people who distributed

only part that Linus actually

the 'basic operating system', with

provides services to all the stuff running on it.

books in this electronic age,

faster), and read up on the basic Unix system.

like MS spits out,

or more at the time

them to buy more hardware every time,

I never followed the masses there. One PC here still has Win2k on it.

35000 hours on the clock, so far.

and what belongs to what.

recursively:

Well, it's not going to work for me. There is lots of hardware I have to deal with that will not cooperate with Linux. And lots of software that would then have to run in wine or some VM. In industry Microsoft won the game, whether we like it or not.

Copyright newsgroup posts?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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That's the default installation in most CAD programs.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

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Well, I can only hope that the local sys admin has some notion of security and ensures the default installation directories are *not* used. It is bad enough if a user directory gets hacked into, some sensitive data might be stolen, but if you allow that user access to system files you are asking for back doors and root kits to be implemented with really serious consequences.

Cheers

Ian

True. However, I do this since over 20 years and never had any infections. Of course I do have a firewall and all that.

In reality you really don't have much choice. Many programs have templates, setup files and whatnot sitting smack dab in the middle of the install directory. Often they must remain there or the whole thing will quit.

--
Merry Christmas, Joerg

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The first 'Drawing Office' I managed was back in the early 80's not long after the PC had come out. There was no internet to speak of then and the DO PCB layout computers, whilst networked together, were not connected to the outside world. The PCB layout software than ran stand alone on a C came out - I think we were using CAD Star then and usually the PCs were not connected to the internet.

The last system I worked with before I retired in 2000 used a small local network of PCs that were *not* connected to the company network and hence the outside world. We sent data over the internet of course but it always was copied to removable media then taken to another PC connected to the internet to be sent out. Those CAD PCs had very sensitive client data about new products and there was not way we would have risked those PCs being connected to the internet. The theft of destruction of any one project could have cost the client millions. With that much at stake you do not mess with security. Several times we were subject to DOS attacks aimed at the PCs connected to the internet.

Now, I dare say with a single system of your own you may never have been hacked in 20 years but that just means you are not an interesting target.

Now I am retired I use FreePCB and as you say, like many CAD programs, it places its libraries in a subdirectory of Program Files under Windows. I am not doing any sensitive work but working with libraries in such a vulnerable directory is not acceptable to me so I actually run the whole program, libraries and all from a subdirectory of a user's Documents folder.

Cheers

Ian

For me it all started in the late 80's with FutureNet Dash-2. Could have use a Racal-Redac before that but the only available time slots on the VAX were way after midnight so I opted for ink and pens.

That gets to be difficult these days where you have to constantly look at datasheets and stuff from manufacturer's websites. But I sometimes also run a separate laptop next to the PC with the wireless turned off. Really, really hot stuff won't even be at the office here.

Well, there are the usual attempts of course but they get thwarted.

I usually don't use the "Program Files" default that the installer prescribes but my own directory structure. Except for the less clever programmed ones that blow right past and don't allow a choice.

For example, all the CAD stuff is in one master directory. Makes the backup checklist easy to follow.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Seems we have similar experiences. I used Racal Redac Cadet workstations and we also had a Vax too - a huge thing that used to run the router over night!

Ah, so you ARE aware of security - good.

Much better.

Cheers

Ian

Yeah, but most CAD programs seem to be written by programmers who think that every OS is DOS. You can tell that much from the UI design.

A large part of why Vista's UAC turned into such a nightmare is that developers seem to have trouble getting it through their skulls that the "Program Files" directory is not meant for storing documents, settings or other "user" files; the "Documents and Settings" directory exists for that purpose. It even has an "All Users" subdirectory for files and settings which are meant to apply to all users.

Joerg Inscribed thus:

Yes DOS ! I went with Windows 286 -> Win386 -> Slackware Linux with Win3.0 on the side -> Unixware with Slackware -> SuSE 5.00 & Unixware...

Apart from having to support M$ operating systems and not being a games player Linux does everything I need even in the M$ world.

I recognised at a very early stage that M$ was just a money machine. GEM was far better, but it died from lack of support when Amstrad dropped it.

The game isn't over yet ! M$ is slowly being strangled. The world can no longer afford the luxury of supporting the M$ money machine. I see people outside M$ who, because their way of life depends upon it will fight tooth and nail to defend their provider.

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Desqview? I loved that one. I wrote a lot of papers with WordPerfect

5.1 and Freelance 4.0 under Desqview. Applications switched instantly, could optionally run in the background, no focus stealing. Good medicine.

OS/2 is good for that too.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
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hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

has=20

=20

=20

on=20

=20

Not so. VMS from the VAX days does the job well, though very = differently. And IBM MVS does it brilliantly, though the namespace conventions are = lame.

And yes, i have written software in both of these environments. My = MVS/APL=20 stuff may still be running after 20 years.

:

Mozilla

try

SUDO"

needs.

any

There is a fundamental difference between MS OSs and *nix OSs; MS stuff was always organized around the single user concept, and *nix was always set up for multiple simultaneous users.