Conclusive physical evidence for AWG?

In , snipped-for-privacy@ieee.org wrote:

I expect sea level changes to be mere millimeters per year until we get enough warming to actually do major damage to Greenland's ice sheet.

I suspect that the upward bounce that I expect after 2030-2035 or so to about 2070 or so to fall short of accomplishing such. It appears to me that global surface temperature as high as 3 degrees C above 1951-1980 or 1961-1990 average may not do only minor damage to Greenland's and Antarctica's ice sheets. What I see being the problem is if we get any warmer - it appears to me that 4 degree C warming that was peak of the interglacial period before the current one accomplished serious melting of Greenland's ice sheet. If we burn enough fossil fuels to get atmospheric CO2 to what it was before our fossil fuels were formed or maybe even so much as past 800 ppmv or so (maybe needing as much as 1200 ppmv), we could achieve 7-8 degree C warming that would melt down the ice sheets of both Greenland and Antarctica. That would force people and businesses in currently-coastal areas to move about 200 meters uphill, and land area above water to decrease quite a few percent.

As for methane claptrates - I suspect we will end up minimg them for fuel use when natural gas supply dwindles enough to spike the price up bigtime. Sounds to me like more CO2 rather than "clathrate gun" - but it appears to me that humans will more than avert the next ice age and end up melting at least Greenland's ice sheet and force many millions of people and a lot of industry to move about 7 meters uphill. And should there be much time with Greenland being green all over and the Arctic losing most of its year-round ice cover while Antarctica is ice-covered, watch out for weather zones shifting a hundred or two km northward, maybe more in "The Americas", and more-northern nations having a lot of land too cold to farm to become greater agricultural powers. USA will need "American Ingenuity" continuing to exist with likely precipitation pattern shifts that will probably disfavor a lot of American land that is "a little north of subtropical". Many Americans will also have to cut back watering their lawns - I hope some American breeds a strain of lawn grass that stays green when things go semi-arid. (It appears to me that in the past several decades almost half of Augusts in Philadelphia have almost or over half their rainfall in a single stretch of 8 hours or less, and July and September are only a little better than August with distribution-over-the-month of monthly rainfall in/around Philadelphia. I doubt global warming would improve this situation!)

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Why did you even say salt mine? Salt domes are a kilometer or two underground. Humans tend to get salt from more convenient sources than salt domes!

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

You're talking about the major-brand mass-marketed "pisswasser", good mainly for effects occurring after whatever effects on taste buds.

Meanwhile, USA is quite good at importing enough beer to keep some American breweries up-to-snuff at making the stuff.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

I think that Sloman exaggerated the inefficiency of corn, but I do find corn to be a poor choice in comparison to a couple better alternatives - sugar cane and switchgrass!

Switchgrass has been mentioned a lot as being good for producing ethanol, and it grows as a weed even on semi-arid land that is too arid to profitably farm anything except beef cattle. Horses don't do well by eating it.

Brazil makes good use of sugar cane for biofuel ethanol.

Meanwhile, USA has its biofuel program apparently designed by lobbyists from corn farming corporations, corn farming areas and Archer Daniels Midland so as to require biofuel to specifically be ethanol made from American-grown corn.

It appears to me that USA has a corn lobby and lacks a switchgrass lobby!

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

As always you avoid the question.

The EU has a 5.75% bio fuel obligation for 2010 and a 10% bio fuel obligation for 2020.

You blamed Bush for the US bio fuel plans. Who do blame for the EU plans?

So you are happy for the Amazon rain forest to be torched because it is marginal land? How about the rain forest in Indonesia for palm oil for bio fuel?

How well do we know the base line 280ppmv CO2 level?

The figure is based on ice core measurments. These measurements don't give a point reading per year. The data is more an average over several years. The trapped air is from 40 to 80 years after the ice was formed. It seems reasonable to assume it is actually a mix of air from when the ice formed to 40 to 80 years later. That's a big time constant.

We have no idea how CO2 varied in the short term historically. There are chemical measurments from 1810 onwards showing large fluctuations in atmospheric CO2 although the reliability of this data is questioned.

No it didn't. Uranium is a far more common element than most people imagine. It is trivial to detect in tap water with modern instrumentation. Commercially minable ore deposits are rare but the element itself is as common as muck with average crustal abundance about

2ppm (2g/tonne). Tungsten and Molybdenum are both rarer metals.

In the UK we do have an active and very large salt mine in Cheshire. EXtremely busy too at the moment thanks to the cold snap. It has been approved as a toxic waste dumping site. The neighbours are not impressed. I used to work just around the corner from it. Almost all older homes there are timber framed and c*ck-eyed.

The salt domes are much closer to the surface in Cheshire. So close in fact that the old Roman method of extraction by pumping water into the ground still has consequences on the surface.

UK plans to dump its nuclear waste permanently under Windscale - not because it is geologically suitable (it isn't) but because the neighbours will not object since their jobs depend on the nuclear plant.

Ideally you should put nuclear waste somewhere surrounded by impervious rocks without ground water and in a long term geologically stable zone. Salt mines or deep gypsum mines are not far off meeting that criteria. There is a good geological location in the South of England but the Nimbys won't wear it.

Regards, Martin Brown

But it is all about getting US grain farmers votes, and being seen to "do something". It has no net benefit.

That was true during that period when oil was cheaper. When the price of oil rises then their C4 sugar cane to ethanol method is reasonable. And although there are environmental problems with it there is a significant net energy gain. The Brazilian processes have improved since that paper was written. The same is not true of ethanol from grain.

Brazil didn't have than much choice they were short of oil, and foreign currency to buy it. It wan't about going green it was about running cars on a domestically manufcactured fuel.

Regards, Martin Brown

Many years ago when I worked for Coulter Electronics I spent a bit of time in Hialeah, Florida. Most of the stuff in in the bars was served at around freezing point in glasses stored in the freezer! Truly awful.

However I did find something quite good, I think it was called Samuel Adams. It had a decent flavour but was spoilt by being served freezing cold and full of dissolved CO2. After warming it up a bit and shaking out the CO2 it tasted almost as good as an English beer! :-)

You wouldn't expect an Aussie to know about beer. Their stuff's just as bad.

It's known that the egghead gets his kicks from issuing warnings about brick walls on freeways, that the map was printed by an orgnanisation that has its own motives for pushing the idea that there are brick walls on freeways, and that if the egghead stopped issuing warnings about brick walls on freeways, he'd have to get a proper job.

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I did not say "clueless about beer". You, and he, are simply sans clue.

[snip]

Except it's true. Virtually all Spice variants on a modern PC run much faster, as in at least an order of magnitude, than on a VAX

11/780.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
              Teacher\'s Unions Cause Global Warming

Samuel Adams started as a micro-brewery, but becqme so popular that it was brewed under contract by megabreweries such as Stroh's and Miller. The company claims that all the production sites use the same ingredients and processes.

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Do you imagine that "once the oil is pumped out" there is an oil- pumped-out-sized cavity in the salt dome?

It gets awfully hot in Florida. There are arguments for drinking large quantities of weak, very cold beer, especially if the local water is bad. Hialeah is not the culinary or the cultural capital of anywhere.

SA is too hoppy and bitter for my taste. We have some excellent pilsner and wheat beers here, so you can taste the rest of the ingredients.

We have lots of lukewarm bitter flat stuff too.

The Monk's Kettle here has 20 beers on tap, about 100 total. Zitgeist is close, including Guinness and Chimay on tap. Both have superb burgers and interesting fauna.

My skinny wife loves Guinness. Mystifies me.

John

[snip]

Same here. And my oldest son. No one else in the family likes it.

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

| 1962 | Think things are bad now? Wait until Obama "takes care" of you.

In article , To-Email- snipped-for-privacy@My-Web-Site.com says...>

I would never have considered "faster than a VAX 11/780" to be anything spectacular. VAXen were turtles.