The denialists fear additional government regulations, more than they fear hitting the brick wall. Some of them are even into conspiracy theories. Most are pissed at Al Gore (he is an attractive target ... don't much like him myself).
Sometimes we have to regulate. Without regulations, we would still be dumping and leeching filth and carcinogens into our rivers and aquifers.
I fear a massive waste of resources rather than regulation. I also fear that most greenies are of the Pol Pot tendancy.
/quote
Watson who has unapologetically called human beings the ?AIDS of the Earth?, declared human beings must reduce the world?s population to less than 1 billion people, dwell in communities no larger than ?20,000 people and separated from other communities by wilderness areas,? and recognize themselves as ?earthlings? dwelling in a primitive state with other species.
/end quote
"Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental." -- David Foreman, Founder of Earth First!
"We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place for capitalists and their projects... We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land." -- David Foreman, Earth First! Confessions of an Eco-Warrior
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I'll bet this guy drives a car and takes a hot shower every day. From what I have seen, these people think everyone else should sacrifice, and then they get to enjoy a "pristine" earth.
Heck, most of these people are not religious, so what does it matter if we totally ruin the earth anyway? It's all going to burn out eventually anyhow.
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Nonsense. If Jim were deeply troubled, he go an find out something about the subject.
He obviously hasn't, otherwise he would be sharing Rich Grise's foolish delusion that anthropogenic global warming is a religous revelation, rather than the consequence of some fifty years of scientiific investigation across a number of rather different disciplines.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Well, that would see Jim culled out and disposed of. He certainly hasn't posted a word to suggest that he has ever looked any of the experimental evidence for the theory he's claiming to be "unproven".
Pity isn't going to happen.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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Raven>I fear that most greenies are of the Pol Pot tendancy.
"As radical environmentalists, we can see AIDS not as a problem, but as a necessary solution."
-Earth First! Journal
"The collective needs of non-human species must take precedence over the needs and desires of humans."
-Dr. Reed F. Noss, The Wildlands Project
"Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs."
-John Davis, Editor, Earth First! Journal
"I suspect that eradicating small pox was wrong. It played an important part in balancing ecosystems."
-John Davis, editor of Earth First! Journal
"We reject the idea of private property."
-Peter Berle, President of the National Audubon Society
"The world has cancer, and the cancer is man."
-A. Gregg, _Mankind at the Turning Point_
"Cannibalism is a radical but realistic solution to the problem of overpopulation."
-Lyall Watson, Quoted in The Financial Times
"The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States: We can't let other countries have the same number of cars, the amount of industrialization, we have in the U.S. We have to stop these Third World countries right where they are."
-Michael Oppenheimer, Environmental Defense Fund
"Allowing the EPA to condone continued use of a chemical whenever the benefits outweighs the risks is absolutely anathema to the environmental community."
-Janet Hathaway, Natural Resources Defense Council
"In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate
350,000 per day."-Dr. Jacques Cousteau
"This is a political game. It has nothing to do with science. It has nothing to do with health and safety."
-Sherry Neddick, Greenpeace
"If I were reincarnated, I would wish to be returned to Earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels."
-Prince Phillip, speaking to the World Wildlife Fund
"Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn't it our responsibility to bring that about?"
-Maurice Strong, Head of the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro
"Nuclear power must be dealt with irrationally... Nuclear plants are carcinogens. Let's get that story out... Their lies will catch up to them. We need endless Chernobyl reminders."
-Ralph Nader
"The secret to David McTaggart's (early Greenpeace officer) success is the secret to Greenpeace's success: It doesn't matter what is true... it only matters what people believe is true... You are what the media define you to be. [Greenpeace] became a myth, and a myth-generating machine."
-Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace
"The Environmentalist's Dream is an Egalitarian Society based on: rejection of economic growth, a smaller population, eating lower on the food chain, consuming a lot less, and sharing a much lower level of resources much more equally."
-Aaron Wildavsky
"Global Sustainability requires the deliberate quest of poverty ... reduced resource consumption ... and set levels of mortality control."
-Professor Maurice King
"A global climate treaty must be implemented even if there is no scientific evidence to back the greenhouse effect."
-Richard Benedict, State Dept. employee working on assignment from the Conservation Foundation
"Giving society cheap, abundant energy... would be the equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun."
-Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University
"Complex technology of any sort is an assault on human dignity. It would be little short of disastrous for us to discover the source of clean, cheap, abundant energy, because of what we might do with it."
-Amory Lovins, Rocky Mountain Institute
"We've got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing -- in terms of economic policy and environmental policy."
-Timothy Wirth, former U.S. Senator (D-Colorado)
"We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place for capitalists and their projects ... We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land."
-David Foreman, Earth First!
"The extinction of the human species may not only be inevitable but a good thing ... This is not to say that the rise of human civilization is insignificant, but there is no way of showing that it will be much help to the world in the long run."
-Editorial in _The Economist_.
"I suspect that the politicians and businessmen who are jumping on the environment bandwagon don't have the slightest idea of what they are getting into. They are talking about emission control devices on automobiles, while we are talking about bans on automobiles."
-Dennis Hayes, Earth Day Agenda
"It's (the prospect of cheap fusion energy) the worst thing that could happen to the planet."
-Jeremy Rifkin
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed - and hence clamorous to be led to safety - by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-H. L. Mencken
"Behind the honeyed but patently absurd pleas for equality is a ruthless drive for placing 'the new elite' at the top of a new hierarchy of power."
-M. N. Rothbard
"The move toward controlling less and less pollution at greater and greater expense --until you are spending everything to control nothing -- is one of the big water quality problems we are facing in the future."
-Ernest Rosenberg
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost."
-M. N. Rothbard
"'Protecting the Environment' is a ruse. The goal is the political and economic subjugation of most men by the few, under the guise of preserving nature."
-J. H. Robbins
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
-H. L.Mencken
"There is nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine ... been here 4 1/2 billion years. We've been here, what, a
100,000 years, maybe 200,000. And we've only been engaged in heavy industry a little over 200 years. 200 years versus 4 1/2 billion. And we have the conceit to think that somehow we're a threat? The planet isn't going away. We are."-George Carlin
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No, it is not the "reasoning". It is an analogy. It is a pretty poor analogy, and vastly over-simplified, but it is directed at a very unsophisticated audience who seem unwilling to find out enough about the subject to form any kind of rational opinion.
The reasoning that is driving most governments (now including the US government again) is the same reasoning that prompted the setting up of the IPCC in 1988
which was find out what the world's climatologists thought was going on in the atmosphere, and what effects any change that was going on might have in the future.
Back then, it looked as if business as usual would evnetually lead us all to ruination, and now - twenty years on - the mesage is still the same. We still don't know quite how fast we are moving down the road to ruin, but we now know that we'd better do something to revrese the trend sooner rather than later.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
And you can observe conclusive phsyical evidence that anthropogenic global warming is real and getting worse. It isn't yet anything like bad enough to take you by the scruff of your sceptical neck and immerse you in the bucket of problems that we are allowing to build up, but the evidence is available to anybody who goes to the trouble of learning enough about the science involved to make sense of the data available.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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People may be asking legitimate questions, but these people are ignoring the legitimate annswers that have been around for some twenty years, when the IPCC first started publsihing their reports.
The same people don't like the IPCC's answers - not because they can understand the scinece involved in getting the answers and have legitimate objections to the way those answers were worked out, but because they fear the economic consequences of of taking the answers seriously.
This doesn't happen to be a legitimate objection. They - and you - are ducking the real evidence.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
an
There certainly isn't a brickwall but unrestrained global warming seems likely to cause a population crash within a few generations, if we let it get that far.
Note that the people who told you that there were weapons of mass descrution in Irak were the same crew that tried to prevent US scientists from saying that anthropogenic global warming was a real threat.
Not the same politicians. The honest ones do beleive in anthropogenic global warming. It was the lying cheats who denied it.
The carbon dioxide that caused the global warming eventually got buried as carbonate rocks; the gain around the positive feedback loops here was never greater than two, so as the CO2 got buried, the temperature cooled off.
You've been told how stupid this argument is before. The ice ages in the ice core record are driven by the Milankovitch Effect
and carbon dioxide coming out of solution in the oceans is one of the positve feedbacks that builds up the relatively small effect of the change in the orientation of the earth vis--a-vis the summer sun to a significant change in temperature. Since it takes a while - some 800 years - for the oceans to warm up, the CO2 level lags the temperature. At the moment we are injecting CO2 into the atmosphere by burning fossil carbon, which directly warms the earth via the greenhouse effect.
Since you clearly can't learn for experience, it would seem that you have been drinkng a lot too much beer for far too much of your life, and have lost the capacity to absorb new information.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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Pol Pot took a rather more proactive attitude than even the most rabid of the lunatic fringe greenies.
Pretty stupid rhetoric.
Jeffrey D Sachs in his recent book "Co"mmonwealth: Economics for a Crowded Planet" ISBN 978-0-14-311487-1 presents a slightly less rabid version of the same story, where he suggests that we'd probably better try to hold the human population at or below eight billion people.
Despite your demented anxieties, he does represent mainstream opinion on the subject.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Once we go over to sustainable energy sources - wind power, solar power and hydro power - you can take as many hots showers as you like, and drive everywhere in your electric car, without running any risk of ruining the earth.
You may not have any direct interest in the state of the earth after your death, but you would feel a bit stupid if someone worked out how to stop the ageing process within your lifetime, and your kids - if you ever manage to have any - would not be too pleased with your attitude.
As far as the earth burning out eventually - this doesn't look likely to happen for another 5 billion years. If we last ten millions years as an identifiable species we will be doing well, which is a rather shorter time.
In fact the worst we could do to the earth would be to bring on a global extinction event. These have happened in the geological past, and the more dramatic examples have done for every land animal that was bigger or or more slow-breeding than a rabbit. The smaller animals that do survive take a couple of million years to evolve into the bigger, slower-breeding animals that can take over the big-animal ecological niches, but thereafter it is back to business as usual.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
"Raveninghorde" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
The sun is a black body radiator. IR and UV intensities follow directly from its surface temperature. Don Klipstein is a educated person and expects other educated people to know that
See above.
None of which have ever been shown to have any effect on the climate of the earth. And I do know that various authors have claimed such effects, but I also know that their claims all turned out to be defective.
Since you seem to believe everything that you read on denialist web-sites, who seem to be as enthusiastic about publishing these exploded claims as they are reluctant to publish the subsequent corrections, your attitude is not unexpected.
It is - of course - seriously ill-informed, but that's nothing new for you, and we can't realistically hope that you are ever going to learn to do better.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
After 50 years of investigation, what is the conclusive physical evidence that AGW is dangerous.
"Extraordinay claims require extraordinay evidence"... Carl Sagan
I'm not even asking for __extraordinay__ evidence, just some regular ordinary physical evidence...
Mark
As an engineer, would you say that a system with positive feedback:
a) Stays reasonably stable (like the earth does)?
or
b) Drives itself to some upper or lower limit (like the earth doesn't)?
No. He just was allowed more power over people. We don't allow greenies to have that much power over us. If we did they would wield that power in a way that makes Pol Pot look like a piker.
Not acceptable to Greenies. Wind turbines kill birds. Solar cells are made with nasty chemicals. Greenies are trying to tear down dams, not build more of them.
The French have the right idea. Nuclear reactors. Many, many nuclear reactors. A breeder reactor is the ultimate in renewable energy.
Somebody has to design the weenie casings, don't they?
--
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If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account:
There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
They have plenty of capacity for that! :(
-- http://improve-usenet.org/index.html aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white listed, or I will not see your messages. If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you\'re crazy.
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