Conclusive physical evidence for AWG?

What are the physical manifestations of global warming that we can actually MEASURE and OBSERVE?

When it comes to making important policy decisions that effect all of us, there needs to be a clear distinction between PREDICTIONS and SIMULATIONS vs. physical MEASUREMENTS and OBSERVATIONS. To make an analogy to electronics, are you going to make major decisions that impact the economic health of your company based solely upon the results of PSPICE simulations or are you going to build prototypes and make real measurements?

1) CO2 CONCENTRATION The measured increase in CO2 concentration is well established. The CAUSE of the increase is not well established. The measured increase is within the same order of magnitude as the amount of CO2 civilization is putting into the atmosphere therefore theory that the CO2 increase is anthropogenic is a reasonable possibility but not a 100% certainty. The CO2 concentration has varied widely well before the use of fossil fuels. The increase in CO2 concentration is conclusive but the cause of the increase is not conclusive.

2) GLOBAL TEMPERATURE INCREASE The measured global temperature increase we measure today is very small and is within the noise of normal weather variations. There are no conclusive measurements that can show the cause of this small temperature increase is due to CO2 or to sun spots or to anything else. Predictions that there will be dangerous climate temperature increases in the future are based on simulations. The simulations assume that the temperature rise is caused by the C02 concentration increase and that the CO2 increase is anthropogenic. The cause of the small measured global temperature increase is not conclusive.

3) SEA LEVEL INCREASE The measured global sea level rise today is very small also. There are no conclusive measurements that can show this small increase has anything to do with CO2 or temperature or anything else. Predictions that there will be dangerous increases in sea level in the future are based on simulations. The cause of the small measured sea level rise is not conclusive.

4) POLAR ICE The measured decrease in Arctic polar ice is well established. The measured increase in Antarctic polar ice is also well established. There are no conclusive measurements or physical evidence that indicate a dangerous trend.

If we did not have sensitive scientific instruments, we would not even be aware of some of the small changes that have been measured. These observations are interesting and worthy of further study. However, there is no conclusive physical evidence that anything dangerous is actually happening.

Does it make sense to base a national and world energy policy on simulations without conclusive physical evidence?

Does it make sense to levy a carbon tax or establish a cap and trade bureaucracy, without conclusive physical evidence?

Does it make sense to use resources to build large carbon capture facilities to sequester CO2 underground without conclusive physical evidence?

Does it make sense to forgo the use of our oil and coal resources without conclusive physical evidence?

Regardless of the validity of AGW, we do need to address the issue of our energy supply. We DO need to develop alternative energy sources. We do need to develop renewable energy sources. We do need to improve energy efficiency. We do need to consider nuclear energy. These are all forward moving productive steps for civilization to progress and improve the quality of life.

However, imposing taxes, building CO2 sequestration plants, creating a cap and trade bureaucracy and demonizing oil and coal without CONCLUSIVE physical evidence of a real problem just does not make any sense.

Mark

Reply to
makolber
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Imagine that you're on a bus, having a party with beer and good looking fellow party-goers. The bus is hurtling down the freeway at 60 miles an hour.

Now some egghead pulls a map out of his pocket, and on the map, printed in big letters, is a note that the freeway ends at a brick wall.

So you have two options: pull over, stop the party, and let everything cool down, or just keep going, possibly to drive into a brick wall at 60 miles an hour.

So which do you do? The low-cost, extra precaution that reduces your immediate fun but insures your survival? Or do you just keep drinking your beer and tell the driver to speed up, because _you_ haven't _seen_ that wall with _your own eyes_?

Enjoy your beer.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Cool down?

The idea that a freeway would end in a *brick* wall, and that it would be printed on a map, and that there would be no barriers, no diversions, no warning signs, no cop-cars with flashing lights, no common knowledge, is as absurd a conceit as AGW.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

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what do YOU propose we do? totally stop the bus? following your analogy that means stop all use of fossil fuel immediatly ? Did you stop yet? Is the heat off in your house?

Mark

Mark

Reply to
makolber

What I would do, and what I'm going to do, is keep driving.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

[snip]

Such is the "reasoning" now driving our government... and driving us all to ruination.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

The Democrat theory is that spend.. spend.. spend.. and government
jobs will bolster the economy and employment will improve. If that
were actually true, wouldn\'t France have the world\'s best economy?
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Don't forget to examine historical CO2 trends and climate trends of millennia past.

BTW, the ice shelf is growing again, not shrinking.

Ooops! That one didn't last long!

Reply to
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

I have 30 gauge and 12 gauge. I'll stick with them through thick and thin.

--
John
Reply to
John O'Flaherty

If, as some claim, increased C02 in the earth's air causes global warming, why is it that Mars is also warming?

Reply to
me

There are two sunken locomotives 5 miles off shore from New Jersey that are in 100 feet of water. There are no lights or signs or buoys.

Just a reference on the Coast Guard navigational maps about the "obstacle" to shipping traffic.

That is all that should be required.

I wouldn't believe a map that showed a brick wall on a highway either. Now a rock slide is a different story, but how that would end up on a printed map and remain accurate... hmmm...

Reply to
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Try it on any real bus and see what happens. A prediction of something unusual (such as a freeway ending in a brick wall or a planet that has seen ice age after ice age suddenly seeing catastophic heating) needs actual evidence, not just some kook saying that it is so.

Reply to
me

Jeez, just keep quoting the whole damned thing every post guys.

Casey Jones, you'd better watch your speed... :-]

(one important line skipped there).

Been riding a bike to work for over a decade. To the store... everywhere.

My last big expenditure was a flight home for my mom's passing 4 years ago.

Reply to
Capt. Cave Man

You're not going to coax me into starting another pun thread.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Nothing exists that remotely resembles this "map". Your analogy falls apart from the start. If you want to get off the bus and start walking backwards, go ahead. Don't expect the rest of us to buy into your fantasy.

Reply to
Richard Crowley

You're not going to coax me into starting another pun thread.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

I heard they were going to induct you into the 'Bad Electronic Puns Hall of Fame'...

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you\'re crazy.
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Mars is in one of its own cycles - Mars has been in warming and cooling ruts before lasting a few years. The Sun's output has been very well monitored by satellites since 1979 with no decade-by-decade rising trend since then.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Reply to
Don Klipstein

The OP stated facts. You respond with a fantasy.

Reply to
bw

Well, enjoy your beer then.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Enjoy your beer.

So, you can't actually _see_ electrons and holes -- therefore you can't design IC's then, right?

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http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

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