weather

Of course. The tacts bust your faith, so they MUST BE SILENCED!

When do you start burning people at the stake?

Thanks, Rich

Even if it's true, which is unlikely, the current Gorean approach is unrealistic. China and India and Africa are not going to volunteer to stay poor to suit our consumption needs. Cap-and-trade and conversion of food to fuel aren't going to do much but kill people and pospone the real solutions. Oh, and raise tax revenue and expand government controls, which is the real point I suppose.

John

Kind of like Paul Ehrlich's "Population Bomb"?

I think warmingism is getting less attention these days - the Economy has become the Boogeyman du jour.

Cheers! Rich

Take a(an?) historical data set:

Pick a chunk for analysis:

And extrapolate:

Cheers! Rich

And, according to my tomato plants this year, it's the worst La Nina since 1994.

That's the whole problem with looking at the weather and dismissing global warming. Here on the west coast of North America, the effect is a fraction of a degree per year baseline drift out of data with a 4-6 degree C chaotic oscillation with a 6-8 year period.

In 1994(?, might have been '93). A third of my tomatos turned into grey-green goo because of a cold damp August. (Late Blight, the disease that forced Larkin's ancestors to New Orleans from Ireland, and some of mine to New Brunswick). In 1998, the peak El Nino, they were catching Marlin off the Washington coast.

But in the long run, the mountain glaciers are still melting away. And the forest are burning more and more as the overwintering snow pack declines.

Mark Zenier snipped-for-privacy@eskimo.com Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

es.

You know, I hear you on the whole "Is it real - then man-made or not?" argument.

The only thing I would point out is that far too often, things turn out to be much more complex than originally thought. On a layman's level, Occam's Razor seems very approachable, even inviting - but drill down deep enough, and you almost always find that hardly anything can be easily explained.

Maybe that too esoteric for this group, but I thought I'd throw it out there.. see what sticks.

-mpm

There is acknowledgement of clouds and even attempt to have models include a change in cloud cover.

For example, in July 22 2008, in article , John Larkin mentioned:

That one (criticized by John Larkin) shows positive feedback from cloud albedo - apparently clouds could get more compact in a warming world - especially if land warms more than ocean does and relative humidity drops or if tropical cyclones become more numerous.

I have noticed that when it is warmer, cumulus clouds have stronger updrafts from condensing more water, so percentage of the area covered by updraft (and cloud) is less. Also, when it is warmer, less cloud volume is from teeny tiny snowflakes and more is from teeny tiny water droplets - and water droplets fall faster than snowflakes of same mass and water droplets evaporate a lot more quickly than ice crystals when encountering relative humidity under 100%. So cloud cover could actually decrease if the globe warms.

If the globe warms from increased presence of greenhouse gases, then the upper atmosphere will cool. Warmer lower atmosphere and cooler upper atmosphere will increase convection. That means rainstorms will have an increase in tendency for their rainfall areas (or a portion thereof) to be broken into thunderstorms, squall lines or rainbands - and that may decrease cloud cover for a given amount of rain production.

(I seem to think that one may have interchanged the numbers for cloud albedo feedback and surface albedo feedback - I expect cloud cover to change only slightly and ice cover to change a lot if global temperatures change. That article did omit a minus sign as a typographical error one of the times it mentioned lapse rate feedback, leading John Larkin to state incorrectly that the article claimed all of the feedbacks were positive.)

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

This kind of response says a lot about you.

Ah well, unless we find a way of stopping growth by our own volition, nature will put limits on us the hard way. The point is knowing how far we can grow.

Jeroen Belleman

Development and education are the only way out of ecological and human disaster in the poorest countries. Do what is known to work.

I am especially disappointed in the europeans, who want to do mostly the wrong things, slowly, and are largely ignoring the misery of their former colonies.

John

a écrit:

$$Ah well, unless we find a way of stopping growth by our own volition, $$nature will put limits on us the hard way. The point is knowing how far $$we can grow. $ $Development and education are the only way out of ecological and human $disaster in the poorest countries. Do what is known to work. $ $I am especially disappointed in the europeans, who want to do mostly $the wrong things, slowly, and are largely ignoring the misery of their $former colonies. $ $John

I'v heard the earthlings that were captured by aliens thrive quite well in their zoos.

A laudable goal, certainly. Barging in with lots of military force to bring civilization to the unwashed masses doesn't work, as recent history has abundantly demonstrated. Don't give a hungry man a fish. Teach him how to catch one. And when there is no fish left, we all go hungry and we'll fight over the bones.

Jeroen Belleman

Why deleted?

It worked in Germany, Italy, Austria, and Japan. It's probably going to work in Iraq. It does take a few years to kick in.

John

How exactly did it work in Austria, John?

Yes, namely that I don't lie. >:->

Cheers! Rich

It's a prosperous democracy now, ain't it?

John

Nobody's dismissing the fact that the climate changes - only the assertion that it's caused by humans.

Fer crissakes, the planet's been warming and cooling since before there even _were_ people!

Cheers! Rich

And when exactly was it not and how did it become one?

Sure Rich, but what about the rate of change - decades is a VERY short period in terms of climate systems / evolution.