Re: GhostScript/GhostView ??

Once they all have decent jobs they might start thinking hard about changing their government, which would arguably be good worldwide. :-) I'm just trying to point out, for all the downsides to, e.g., the environment that "excess consumption" causes, there are certainly economic upsides as well. This is especially true when you consider that all but a tiny sliver of the economy today is based on what people simply "want" (cell phones, movies, video games, fast food, drive-through coffee stands, etc.) rather than you is truly "needed" (safe foods, a roof over one's head) for a simple, healthy life.

Hmm... sorry to hear that.

I've had a lot of problem with Word screwing up formatting around pictures and also screwing up its own table of contents. That was a hardware description document of ~100 pages, but I haven't tried anything that big in OO office so I can't comment much... except to say that so far I haven't seen problems.

Well, for business purposes the cost of Microsoft Office is reasonable... I just wish that, e.g., high school and perhaps colleges would switch to a non-commercial "standard" for word processing and spreadsheets. For the small number of features needed from a word processor when writing a high school composition, the "learning curve" to pick up a new word processor is pretty trivial... and even a lot of college papers (barring, e.g., theses) have no particular formatting requirements and any old word processor (OO, MS Word, Corel's Word Perfect, Abiword, etc.) would work.

---Joel

Very true. Living in places where you or I are, where Walmart is far away and still carries horse feed supplement, helps a bit because more people are down to earth versus city folks.

I'd prefer they learn what is standard in industry. Whether we like it or not, that is MS-Office. Most people don't have enough skills there and you need that for almost any job if you want to succeed. Case in point: About 10 years ago I needed an assistant. Of a dozen or so candidates none could handle databases. So I hired the one with the most computer skills and taught her. Now she is teaching others, in big companies. When I hired her she didn't quite understand why Excel is inadequate and often too clumsy for any serious book keeping purposes. Nowadays she says she can't understand how she couldn't understand back then. And because she's the goto person for any database issues she has a remarkable job security.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Fifteen years ago, the standard in the industry was WordPerfect because the US government required it for all internal documents. Things changed, Billy G exercised his lobbying muscle, and Word became more popular for a while.

The US government is heading towards using open software. Several of the state governments already require all documents coming in, or going out, be published in the standard open ODT format. The US Army is using Linux in a big way now.

It seems that in a time of rampant deficits, and high taxes, the various local, state and federal governments are having trouble justifying spending good money, over and over again, in great quantities, for things they can get for free.

Around the world, the same thing is happening. China, the world's largest government, looked into licensing a version of Windows, and Office for use as their standard software. They took one look at the source code (something that they insisted upon) and threw the Microsoft people out. They now are standardized on their own version of Linux, along with Open Office.

IBM has ditched all proprietary operating systems and is standardized on SuSe Linux. They have built their business model on providing linux solutions for their customers. Daimler is using Linux for their internal operations. The Howard County Library System switched over to linux, and nobody noticed... except the system administrators that no longer had to reboot the computers a couple of times a day.

Best get out of the way, open source is going to run a steam roller over microsoft. Bill's big toe is already caught under the roller.

-Chuck

Well, government doesn't necessarily lead the path when it comes to industry standards. We and pretty much all our business contacts used MS-Word (DOS) 15 years ago. In the same way that everyone began to migrate from Pascal to C while the DoD didn't like or adopt either one.

I'd like that, too. However, much of the SW I use does not come in a Linux variant. With a few exceptions such as Cadsoft which I think I could get in Linux without having to pay for another license.

What I never understood is the upgrade policy of having to always have the latest release. Makes no sense. I am still using Office 97 on one PC here because it's all I need and why should I toss the license money I paid for it?

Hmm, I happen to know quite a few engineers at Daimler-Benz in Germany. AFAIK they are using Windows.

Their OS'es were never really good IMHO, except for DOS but then again the core of that wasn't developed at MS, AFAIR.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Perhaps VERY slowly. I believe you're thinking of FAA & DOT not buying Vista/MSO 2007 (they're still using XP & M$O).

That's a MUCH bigger factor than the Feds at present. Mostly it is still in the *common sense-vs-M$ FUD* stage and in most places **mandates** are few.

For "security" reasons, I believe. The NSA is an even older, better example (Security-Enhanced Linux, anyone?)

I think Open Document Format is a bigger deal with the states. If they could get *competitive* bids on office suites that supported it, I believe many would still buy M$. Open source is often used as *leverage*.

Micros~1's evil crap regarding their own (pseudo)standard

is causing folks (those who are paying attention) to realize that MSFT will only be dragged to salute ODF kicking and screaming (even though Sun and M$ themselves have MSO plug-ins for this).

Accurate so far.

Nope. They did, however, use this VERY effectively when dickering for terms.

Windoze is still deeply engrained wherever it was formerly pirated.

(It's a part of the M$ strategy.)

Too strong a word.

True.

(Wow. At the moment I'm having trouble even pinging Google.)

The city of Largo, Florida and Ernie Ball, Inc. are really good (and even older) examples as well.

The classic story of Stuart Ball getting tired of being jerked around by M$ and the BSA:

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-treats-us-poorly+&35000+evening-news

Vista/MSO 2007 (they're still using XP & M$O).

I'm thinking of DOD, and the Army. The simple but sad example of the Navy trying to run a Aegis class ship on windows, and having to tow it into port is just to pretty to forget.

going out, be published in the

the *common sense-vs-M$ FUD* stage and in

Perhaps, but stuff like this thread show up in Google when the powers that be do searches on how Linux has worked for others... So, I cannot resist spreading the news!

(Security-Enhanced Linux, anyone?)

SElinux is now a part of *all* linux distributions. It makes linux so secure that NSA loves it! I'm not sure if that is a good thing, though.

local, state and federal governments are

quantities, for things they can get

get *competitive* bids on office suites

used as *leverage*.

Many states and other groups are using Open Software, and Linux as a brick bat to hit MS with over prices and licensing agreements. And that is a good thing. Anything that hits MS in the pocketbook is good, even when it makes my MS stock go down... which is about all MS stock has done in the last 10 years.

is causing

dragged to salute ODF kicking and screaming

It is really such a silly stupid gambit. They were able to make the ODT plugin for Word in less than a week's worth of programming time. So now they are trying to tell the world how evil ODT is.

It is ridiculous for a government agency to require folks submit documentation in a proprietary format... regardless of how common it is. ODT will win.

government, looked into licensing a

one look at the source code (something

Their linux distribution is still on track. It will win in the end. There are tons of pirated (eg demo) copies of MS out there that it will take a while for the winds to change, but they will.

(It's a part of the M$

having trouble even pinging Google.)

System[...]

older) examples as well.

It's even in Texas now. The ball gets bigger the more it rolls! How can it not? The software works as well as MS, and as more and more companies join the party, the software works even better. And it is free!

and the BSA:

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-treats-us-poorly+&35000+evening-news

I quit using MS over 10 years ago. I have done everything on linux since. I have gotten really familiar with Dosemu, and Wine for those applications that need 'doze.

I note that almost every EDA application that used to be on 'doze now has a linux version. Who would have believed that 10 years ago?

-Chuck

JeffM wrote:

Chuck Harris wrote:

A classic.

*+Microsoft.certified.professional+Flip+crashing-the-*-network+dead.in.the.water+Technically-*-NT-*-*-is-no-match-for-*-Unix-*-*+USS.Yorktown+*-buffer-overrun-occurred+YM+For-*-two-*-a-half-hours&strip=1 't-depend-upon-NT+Good.software.libraries+Good-programs+zz-zz+Good.networking.processes+if.NT.*.protected.itself.properly+Good.OS's+*-complete-collapse-*-*-ship's-systems-was-an-NT-problem+only.one

But Joerg... you're the same guy who was just lamenting all the downsides of the "standard" way software is written in industry today, where arguably too many "very high level' methods (lots of Wizards, JIT compiled languages, etc.) are used by programers without enough understanding resulting in a lot of slow, buggy bloatware, weren't you?

OK, look, I agree, pragmatically yes, most everyone today needs to know how to drive Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and perhaps Access (in drecreasing order of "need" there). But I honestly think that the level of proficiency needed by the vast majority of people in those programs is at a level where they can *very* quickly pick it up if they're well-versed in any other leadi1ng word processor, spreadsheet, slide prep program, or database (also perhaps getting "less quick" in order there). (E.g., the vast majority of Excel users do *not* use VBA macros.) Wouldn't you agree? I'm sure I could take a kid who's been using, e.g., OpenOffice Writer throughout high-school and sit him down in front of Word and have him nearly as productive in a day or two.

I think the best route is to keep up with the "standards" but also try to take at least a little bit of an active part in trying to change them when there are better alternatives. (Not that I'm suggesting OO is better in all cases than MSO -- from what you've written, it seems pretty clear that it isn't for you.)

---Joel

Yes, true. However, I don't think OO is better in that respect. What would it help them? We must equip kids with skills that land them their first jobs without another learning curve. Learning curve often mean no income or, worse, more in tuition fees.

Also agree but the reality is this: Kids apply for a job and on the resume must state what precious little there is they can boast about. Now an employer needs some loose sheet data entered, pronto, and vows to keep it tidy in the future because his CPA had just read him the riot act. "Get someone who knows MS-Office, and soon!" sez the CPA. The tax extension is about to run out, time is of the essence, and he decides to keep someone on staff who knows about this computer or whatsitcalled in the corner over there. So he interviews one kid who knows OO but not Excel, then another who claims and exhibits proficiency in Excel, then yet another who claims the same but in a quick test it turns out it was, ahem, a "stretch". Which one gets hired? -> Number two gets hired. So number two can bring money home, food on the table, doesn't have to sponge off the parents anymore. Numbers one and three must return to the grindstone and re-train on what most of the businesses around town need.

I like alternatives. However, every single business I have ever been to uses MS-Office. With one lone exception: A little software shop in Germany was an Apple holdout, they would not use anything that remotely resembles PC software.

So, what is your employer using for book keeping and stuff? ;-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com