OT; Widespread Global warming

The question is, what would such a reduction buy? And the answer is a few milliseconds delay in the - apparently inevitable - anthropogenic- global-warming-driven catastrophe.

We don't know what form this catastrophe will take. I've sketched a few exotic possibilities here, but serious floods or drought seem more likely. Whatever it is going to be, it will have to be big enough to get peoples' attention, and sufficiently obviously caused by anthropogenic global warming to motivate the general public to get something done to slow down global warming - a sort of environmental Pearl Harbour.

We can only hope that it isn't so Pearl-Harbour-like that it won't impair our capacity to wean ourselves off burning fossil carbon as our primary energy source.

I don't beleive in central planning committees any more than you do, which is why I'm hammering on the idea of taxing fossil carbon to an extent that its price reflects its real environmental cost over the next century, which would provide profit and loss motivation for the free market system to build the sustainable power sources. The scheme should be fiscally neutral - or as neutral as a tax and subsidise scheme can be - with most of the extra revenue being invested in the sustainable power generation schemes.

If it happened over-night - which is impossible - you'd lose 8% of your GDP on higher energy costs. This is no worse than happened during the 1973 oil crisis, which didn't exactly crush prosperity. Since the process would have to be spread over a decade or more, what you would actually see would be reduced economic growth.

The capital would be being re-directed to ends that would be less productive - in the short term - than if Exxon-Mobil and its friends were allowed a few more years of maximim profits. In the long term the changeover would be productive rather than destructive because the current system of burning fossil carbon as if there was no tomorrow is unsustainable and actively destructive.

Whereas the tsunami of desructive effects that would ripple forward from not making the reallocation are a legion, and well within my ken. Since you don't understand that anthropogenic global warming is real and getting worse, they are beyond your ken, and you feel happy to prattle on about the - imagined - destructive economic effects of getting our house in order, while ignoring the interesting consequences of - say - destabilising the Greeland ice sheet.

Except that that "huge" difference isn't enough to do more than stave off the consequences of anthropogenic global warming for more than few years, even if a significant proportion of the population could be persuaded to share you eccentric life-style - which may work in southern California, but would be fatal in the colder periods of a Dutch winter.

It won't do the job. Nobody is going to disdain or discourage it, but it is energy diverted from the campaign for an effective solution.

James Arthur prefers his own brand of ignorant stupidity, complete with added extra complacent self-satisfaction.

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I'm a tax-paying citizen - some of those trillions would come out of my hide. The increased cost of energy would be a negative benefit in the short term, but - since sun and wind are free and likely to remain so, while buying oil on the open market makes Russia, Iran and Saudi Arabia rich now, and as peak oil starts to bite more deeply, even richer in the future - it's not going to be a negative benefit for all that long, particularly when you figure in economies of scale.

The increase in atmospheric CO2 is conjectural. CO2 emissions are dominated by the regular economy. Large scale capital works may increase emissions to some enxtent, but it won't be dramatic, and as the new energy sources come on-line they will increasingly compensate for the extra emissions that were involved in constructing them. The usual payback time is a couple of years.

Better in the sense that it has the potential of reversing the process. Since my various thermostats are already adjusted, the potential advantage of brow-beating me into living on the edge of frost-bite aren't - in any event - all that dramatic.

But is is always windy somewhere, and with a big enough grid wind power comes close to being a base-load generator.

The idiot conservationists can always find some creature whose habitat is going to be wiped out. Since anthropogenic global warming is going to wipe out a lot more species that the occasional tidal barrage, they can be told to take a running jump.

James Arthur in his role as a witless greeny. endorsing a solution that isn't remotely adequate to tackle the job.

Absolutely. And the way to do that is to raise the price of energy - ideally by raising the price of fossil fuel to a point that reflects the future damage that is going to be caused by the CO2 released to the atmosphere when you burn it. Not only does this encourage energy conservation, but it also encourages the right kind of energy conservation.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman
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The UK grid is already linked into the European grid and has been for decades. No wind power over the whole of the UK - implausible as this is - isn't a sufficient objection.

The UK grid has been linked to the French grid since I was at university - forty years at least.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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And draws his own water from a well, isn't connected to mains sewage or the telephone system, and doesn't enjoy the protection of the US armed forces.

Ken S. Tucker does seem to be a mythical figure - the figment of a creative imagination.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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Actually, all the people in the world could live in a space the size of Texas with the density of New York city, or 270K square miles. With a earth land area of about 56 million square miles, this allows 56e6 /

270e3 =3D 207 square additional miles for each inhabitant of the earth. Do you think this is reasonable to support the population of the earth without environmental concerns?

-Bill

Reply to
Bill Bowden

Hate to break the news to you, but lots of people have their own well and are not connected to mains sewage. That would be me for one.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Yeah, that could be a "shitty" situation when things go wrong! :)

It's brown trout season boys!

Jamie

Reply to
Jamie

It's a little harder to avoid the protection of the US armed services, and there's always the 3% of the carbon footprint that's put down to financial services - 0.6 of ton of CO2 per year for US residents. For a US resident to claim to have got their carbon footprint down to 1 ton of CO2 requires some serious wishful thinking.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dan

No so difficult if your house has three septic tanks - all now out of use - under the drive outside the garage. You don't have to live that far out of town in Australia for a septic tank to be the usual way of dealing with sewage, so I've been familiar with the concept since I was a child

Meanwhile Ken is generating his own electricity without burning fossil carbon, and paying for his internet connection with cash? His claimed

1 ton of CO2 emissions per year represents wishful thinking - possibly aided a by a little incompetence.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

I am a bit confused on the 0.6 tons of CO2 for financial services for U.S. residents. Are you saying that all U.S. residents use the same amount of financial services?

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

I'm sure you use as much as Warren Buffet :)

Reply to
Raveninghorde

Anybody who posts here is going to use the banking system, and that's basically all infra-structure. It's energy consumption isn't going to vary all that much with volume of work it is handling, so it makes sense to spread it's CO2 footprint over everybody who uses it.

The system as whole is going obviously going to be bigger than it would be if it were just dealing with individual depositors, but the individual depositors also benefit from the large scale financial transactions that the banks also handle, so it wouldn't make much sense to try to spread out the CO2 footprint on the basis of individual transactions - it's a network and a database rather than a collection of machines handling a series of discrete and isolated transactions.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Dan

Probably not. But there aren't that many Warren Buffets, and he doesn't have his own private corner of the banking system that isn't used by anybody else. The banking system is a network and a database that derives pretty much all its utility from being connected to everybody, which constraint largely dictates its size and performance

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dan

You don't have to go that far back in history to get that level of technology. My father grew up on a farm with no electrical power, water from a spring, sewage into the roadside ditch, farm machines powered by horses, and heating and cooking fuel cut from the woodlot up the hill. The biggest contributions to the global CO2 load were the telephone batteries and the kerosene lanterns.

That ended with electrification in 1947 and the more or less concurrent purchase of a pickup truck and a chain saw.

Reply to
Richard Henry

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=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dan

That's not the way a septic tank works - as Ken S Tucker would be aware if he actually had one. I've never actually lived anywhere where our sewage went into an on- site septic tank. The previous owners of our current house used to get a local pig-farmer to come and pump out the undigested residue in the bottom of the tanks every couple of years. That residue got added to the slurry from the pig farm and dealt with as prescribed by the Dutch ministry of agriculture - pig farming in the Netherlands is bottle- necked by the problem of getting rid of the sewage, and there are lots of rules.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

By this reasoning since we live in a global environment, it makes sense to spread the CO2 footprint over everyone in the world.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

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Let's put our 'green' 'thinking' hats on. Bill's not conserving, and there's no point in us conserving if he won't--he's made that clear-- so gee, how *do* we solve this? Hmmm, a Mongol invasion perhaps?

Study: Genghis Khan's Mass Killings Cut Carbon Footprint

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-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Financial services are primarily national. It might make some sense to treat the Euro zone as a single unit - the local banks don't charge much extra if I pay some-one in Germany by interbank transfer, but they do charge more.

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Bill Sloman

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Jame's Arthur's thinking hat has obviously passed its sell-by date

Nor joining in any "children's crusade" that hasn't any chance of doing anything effective.

There's no point in your conserving, whether or not I joined in - it isn't going to do anything useful to slow down anthropogenic global warming.

The answer is easy enough - tax fossil carbon fuel at a level that makes sustainable energy sources economically attractive - but it doesn't fit James Arthur's ideology of choice, so he can't see it as an answer.

A solution which would work. Get rid of enough human beings and you've obviously got rid of anthropogenic global warming. There are solutions which are compatible with the continued existence of the human race, but James Arthur prefers the final solution, probably because it is the only one that is simple enough for him to understand.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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Naturally--children conserve, 'real' men burn, right?

--
> There's no point in your conserving, whether or not I joined in - it
> isn't going to do anything useful to slow down anthropogenic global
> warming.
>
> > so gee, how *do* we solve this?
>
> The answer is easy enough - tax fossil carbon fuel at a level that
> makes sustainable energy sources economically attractive - but it
> doesn't fit James Arthur's ideology of choice, so he can't see it as
> an answer.
>
> > Hmmm, a Mongol invasion perhaps?
>
> > Study: Genghis Khan's Mass Killings Cut Carbon Footprint
> > =A0http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/25/study-genghis-khans-mass-killings-=
c...
>
> A solution which would work. Get rid of enough human beings and you've
> obviously got rid of anthropogenic global warming. There are solutions
> which are compatible with the continued existence of the human race,
> but James Arthur prefers the final solution, probably because it is
> the only one that is simple enough for him to understand.

I figured you'd like the Mongol invasion approach.

Your economic and AGW ideas are coming together so beautifully in
Egypt, why not whip out the Mongols too?

--
Cheers,
James Arthur
Reply to
dagmargoodboat

True.

If I do a dollar payment the payment goes through New York. Since most trade is in dollars then the costs should be allocated across the world, particulary to China and Japan.

Reply to
Raveninghorde

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