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OT Gas Prices and the Blame Game

/kWh.

=EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF= =BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD...Jim Thompson

The thermal storage numbers I reviewed were based on initial capital outlay, not operating cost. But even then, they were about a 50 to

70% premium. Proably not a big deal ten years out, as inflation (and currency devaluation) continue to hammer the price of a barrel of oil.

But I will review the links you provided. The US will probably have to subsidize solar-thermal, or undertake the equivalent of a TVA-type collossus as I doubt there will be much interest in building plants that have no available connection to a nationwide energy grid. (Which the existing grid is old anyway.)

Seems like a win-win to me. If were going to spend the money anyway, let's do it right.

Reply to
mpm
Loading thread data ...

The numbers are there. The 3 cents thing is hearsay. I'm not sore, and I didn't "lose"; I cited numbers from a number of reputable sources, sources you reject for your own reasons. There are lots more, and 17 cents seems to be about average, although some are much more. I have private doubts about actual plant lifetimes and operating expenses.

So put a trough on your roof and start making power. And get access to Google somehow.

Most things are more expensive here than they are in the burbs. It's demand driven; a billion people would live here if they could, so the price gets bid up. London, New York, Tokyo, Seoul are like that too. I suppose Phoenix isn't. We all make our choices.

John

about to get a world-class latte and an equally good pastry, a short walk away. Maybe I'll pick up some Swiss chocolates on the way back... my stash is getting low.

Reply to
John Larkin

snipped-for-privacy@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

in one

Oops, as I re-read this, we were discussing this in terms of overall capacity, not demand. My bad. (I hate that expression, by the way.)

-mpm

Reply to
mpm

Arizona is virtually all Federal lands.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Or 100% of Canada!

Storage is still a problem.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Not in Arizona... nighttime demand is about 1/2 of daytime.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

However sunlight levels, even in Arizona, do tend to decline to less than 1/2 during nighttime. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany
[snip]

Just don't step in the gutter... you might get HIV to go with your latte and chocolate ;-)

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: "skypeanalog" | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

formatting link
| 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Reply to
Jim Thompson

[snip]

I meant cover nighttime demand from conventional plants... though there seem to be a number of researchers investigating storage.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

But we generate very little electricity from oil. So oil price increases don't make thermal solar any more appealing.

Yes. Let the market decide what's the most economical way to generate electricity, without subsidies. If thermal solar, or PV, is the way to make money, the plants will get built. But spending $10 to save $1 seldom makes sense (unless you're the one getting the $10.)

John

Reply to
John Larkin

r

..

to

(and

John - Your math does not add up. Please explain to me your 10:1 ratio comment, above.

Empircally, your comments are also disproved. The (3) companies mentioned are ALREADY building these large-scale solar-thermal utilities. Therefore, the market has already looked at the economics and has decided to forge ahead.

What do you know that they don't?

The point that should be raised is I don't see a single American company invested in providing these plants. (Though I have not scrutinized ownership.) Either way, it's not suprising. The US probably shipped that capability overseas too, along with our jobs, our technologies, and our collective futures.... Spain has to lead the way in solar-thermal?? I don't get it.?!

-mpm

Reply to
mpm
[snip]

Wrong. There is already in place a major feed between Tucson-Phoenix-Wintersburg-Los Angeles

UHV (400KV and up) transmission improves that.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Attention to what? Projections? But there are so many.

We are talking about actual energy cost at the point of load. Demonstrated and unsubsidized. If thermal solar can compete, fine; it will, on its own, without political assistance.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

At least there are no clouds to worry about.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

That's *not* the way it's transmitted.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Rational approaches are _never_ subsidized... only cockamamy crap like ethanol and hydrogen get subsidies. Fortunately the price of food is going up. The sheep will have to rebel or die.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

That's what they tell the sheep... only transmitted human-to-human. A doctor friend opines that it's very likely transmittable in many other ways... otherwise how did it get from apes to man?

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Reply to
Jim Thompson

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

The CIA injected it into them, of course! Haven't you been following Jeremiah Wright's teachings!?

Reply to
Joel Koltner

Sex, or catching bushmeat. Both are practiced.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

That must be it ;-)

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: "skypeanalog" | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

formatting link
| 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Reply to
Jim Thompson

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