OT: All cars electric..

wrote:

and

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. The speed is slower so less braking very near 100%. Anything below 90% gives full regen in my car. What you call the "middle of the battery charg e" is 10% to 90%, the range you would normally operate the battery anyway.

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That's not really bad.

It wouldn't be if the electrolysis stage was the only one where you lost en ergy.

The round trip from electric power via hydrogen gas back to electric power gets you back about 25% of the energy you started out with.

There are a bunch of "industry experts" who want Australia to install huge solar farms to make hydrogen to get liquified and shipped off to Korea and Japan.

They figure that they can make money on the deal, and may well be right.

A long undersea high voltage cable would probably be a better way of moving the power the 5000 miles involved, but the up-front cost would be higher.

hydrogen which can be injected into the natural gas distribution system rep lacing carbon releasing gas.

Batteries give you back about 85% of the energy you put in. It's a much bet ter deal, but you'd need a lot of batteries, and Elon Musk seems to be the only guy who has spent big on mass-producing them. And his output is aimed at electric cars, rather than grid back-up for which vanadium redox cells s eem to be a better choice.

proportion of gas heat in the homes and like it, they like it a lot!

For space heating the thermodynamics may be a bit better - until you compar e burning gas with driving an electrically power heat-pump. Heat pumps do r epresent a bigger capital investment than a gas burner, but if you do the e nd to end sums they do come out ahead.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney

30-40% region. The losses are a combination of theoretical limitations (~8 3% each way) and practical ones.

el cell efficiency in a car? I have no idea what you mean about 83% "each way".

both suffer from theoretical losses since part of the energy is unavoidabl y converted to heat during electrolysis.

cell. I don't know much about them but there they don't have the "theoret ical" limitations that hydrolysis does.

using the H2 for heating. This makes good sense anywhere there is gas pipe lines. They are very common in the UK it seems having been promoted some t ime back to use the plentiful gas from the North Sea.

efficient. I don't know of other uses for natural gas/H2 in this country than heating the home, water, cooking... all of which are pretty efficient.

hydrogen storage facilities can be orders of magnitude lower than batteries .

sis to H2. No, I don't think that would be a good idea. I was talking abo ut H2 generation from excess electrical capacity such as solar or wind and storage for use as gas, not to back up electrical use. By using excess cap acity the price of the energy source is minimal.

y one of the better applications.

ural gas. I guess it is another way to provide peaking generation.

ke a significant issue is leakage through piping walls due to the small siz e of the hydrogen molecule.

a show stopper until it is solved. What do you know about it? Hydrogen is not as small as helium.

It's small enough that hydrogen leakage by diffusion is a significant probl em, compounded by the fact that mixtures of hydrogen and air are explosive over a wide range of proportions - air containing more than 4% hydrogen ca n ignite and is easy to ignite.

Since town gas contained quite a lot of hydrogen this isn't an unfamiliar p roblem, and the precautions required are well known (if not always applied as carefully as they might be).

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Bill Sloman, Sydney

But hydrogen gas is diatomic - H2 - while helium gas is monatomic- He.

Mostly two. He-3 is stable but the natural abundance is 1.3 ppm.

The university of NSW has a quantum comnputer that has to be cooled with He-3 to work, and their He-3 comes from the US where it's collected from nuclear reactors, which spit out quite a lot of alpha-particle (He-3)

That too. But town gas contained quite a lot of hydrogen so the problem has been dealt with in the past.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney

In theory, a Hydrogen molecule has the same electron structure (two electrons in 1S shell) as Helium, thus the van der Waals volume of hydrogen, 0.02651 L/mol, is comparable to that of Helium, 0.0238 L/mol. It's about the same size.

The thing is, H2 doesn't diffuse through most metals; if you get it trapped by welding, or neutrons diffusing in, and turning to protons (hydrogen nuclei), that's a problem. A monatomic hydrogen atom in a metal matrix IS a weakening impurity. A pipe or tank doesn't leak too badly with gas pressure, though.

Not really. He is a single atom so 2 electrons in a single 1S shell. H2 is two atoms sharing 2 electrons between them. Not really the same.

Exactly. They mix H2 with methane in public gas distribution, so it can't be too bad.

--

  Rick C. 

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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

But they have found that even though a single layer of graphene has a huge matrix (single layer lattice) much larger than a helium atom, they will still no longer pass through it. It would make for a better lining on Helium balloons.

How much Hydrogen can you store at that pressure? It would need to be in liquid form, for efficient storage.

How much will leak at pipe joints? Teflon tape or pipe dope work OK with Natural Gas, but do they work with Hydrogen?

What percentage of H2 is mixed with the other gases for household heating use? Too many questions, but so few answers. Gas piping in the use is moving away from black iron to orange plastic for distribution.

The last time that I installed Natural gas service, it was plastic from the now Duke Energy steel pipe, to the meter base. Then it went back to black iron, to the furnace and hot water heater. That was 35 years ago.

I was told that homeowners couldn't install their own service. I asked them to give me the law that prevented it. They couldn't. Then I was told that no one passed the leak tests, the first time. I did both.

as a show stopper until it is solved. What do you know about it? Hydroge n is not as small as helium.

?cule?

ctrons much closer than the single electron in the Hydrogen atom. So even a single atom of Hydrogen is half again larger than a Helium atom which has a full valence shell so doesn't form diatomic molecules. He has a diameter

Can you say, Use less ass hole?

I could not see the word Molecule in the quoted text of your post. Google g roups grays it out so much that it is often unreadable. Most of the time th ere is nothing display so I have no idea what you are ranting about and I j ust go to the next message. I have spent most of my time for the last two w eeks with my legs propped on my computer desk to reduce swelling, and to ge t dozens of wounds to dry up, so the 24" monitor is over six feet away. Ma y your last gays on earth be no better than mine.

I asked my questions, because what I saw didn't make sense. Rather than you posting a polite reply to clarify the issue, you were your usual nasty sel f.

Only approximately the same; an H atom is large while an H2 molecule has the hybrid orbitals mainly outside the nucleus-nucleus spacing (which is small). The H2 molecule is nowhere near the size of two H atoms, because the nuclear charge is doubled, just like in He.

For most uses, 'high pressure' is about 2000psi. That doesn't store much hydrogen per cubic foot, and neither does liquid; the preferred storage is dissolved in solid (intercalation compounds). For C3N4, pressures on the order of 500 psi should suffice, and you get about 25 lbs of H2 in a modest mass of tank, about the same energy as 60 lbs of gasoline.

Good joints are ones that don't leak.

whit3rd wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Good joints are the ones that make your brain leak.

snipped-for-privacy@decadence.org wrote in news:quv737$1rnt$2 @gioia.aioe.org:

What is the drum sound (rimshot)? Ba Dum Dum Chee!

at as a show stopper until it is solved. What do you know about it? Hydro gen is not as small as helium.

lectrons much closer than the single electron in the Hydrogen atom. So eve n a single atom of Hydrogen is half again larger than a Helium atom which h as a full valence shell so doesn't form diatomic molecules. He has a diamet

.

groups grays it out so much that it is often unreadable. Most of the time there is nothing display so I have no idea what you are ranting about and I just go to the next message. I have spent most of my time for the last two weeks with my legs propped on my computer desk to reduce swelling, and to get dozens of wounds to dry up, so the 24" monitor is over six feet away. May your last gays on earth be no better than mine.

ou posting a polite reply to clarify the issue, you were your usual nasty s elf.

You didn't ask a question. You made a couple of poorly connected statement s and then told me to go learn. So your rudeness was (nearly) matched my m y own.

Yes, it would have been better if I had simply not replied at all. Wrestli ng with pigs and all. But I had to look up the details and it helped me to recall some of my education. I had forgotten that the double positive cha rge holds the electrons closer to the nucleus. So as you work across the p eriodic chart the size of the atoms generally gets smaller. The lone elect ron of atoms in the first column are very loosely held and so the atoms are rather large. Hydrogen can be considered a column 1 element, but because in the first shell there are only two choices, 1 electron or a full shell, so hydrogen is rather a hybrid of column 1 and column 7, is the glass half empty or half full?

So even if you went away mad, I (re)earned something.

If you want people to think you are being serious in a discussion rather th an just exercising your rudeness, try actually constructing complete though ts and end the questions with a question mark. Also, it's better if you do n't say rude things like "You need to learn...". How do you talk to people who are standing in front of you?

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  Rick C. 

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lectrons in 1S shell) as Helium,

H2 is two atoms sharing 2 electrons between them. Not really the same.

small). The H2 molecule

ubled, just like in He.

Actually, the size of the H2 molecule is very nearly the size of 2 H atoms. I was digging a lot regarding this and it seems the diminishment of the m olecular size is very slight in H2. Maybe I found bad references, but that

H atom.

Seems the very idea of size in the atomic world is subject to definition an d the Van der Walls size is calculated from gas laws rather than measured i n a more direct way. There are many other measures of size. But the botto

tation format and is not SI. I always have to convert back and forth. But the one reference I found that gave a value for the Van der Waals radius o f H2 used it...

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  Rick C. 

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How about a powerful EMP event that takes the grid down for weeks, or months? Gas stations could operate off small generators, and I would think that refineries have large backup generators.

ths? Gas stations could operate off small generators, and I would think tha t refineries have large backup generators.

Ok, so you can gas up your ICE, but it won't work because it was destroyed in the EMP. Virtually everything other than my mechanical dial microwave w ould stop working even with AC power in an EMP event.

Why speculate on such an incredibly improbable event when there are so many much more probable reasons to not like EVs?

Someone here speculated he would have an emergency where he'd need to drive more than the range of an EV and he hadn't plugged it in to charge last ni ght or had just gotten back from a trip where the car was depleted or this or that... All of that nonsense is much more plausible than an EMP!

Even if you drive a 1950 Ford pickup that runs after an EMP (maybe) the rad io won't work... well, maybe it will if you can still find tubes! Hey! I' m going to buy the last 1950 Ford pickup in the state and make sure I can s urvive an EMP event.

Why all the negativity toward EVs? I get that JL is a bonehead who can't a ccept he was wrong and EVs are going to be widely popular. What do you hav e against them?

BTW, my Tesla stock is up 75% from the purchase price. As long as it doesn 't tank before the end of May I can sell it and only pay long term capital gains. Right now there's well over $100,000 profit. If they report a dece nt profit for this quarter that will continue up. Then there's only one mo re quarter to go. :)

I don't know if Tesla is a good long term buy, but there is a lot of money to be made on the changes in fortune.

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  Rick C. 

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s small). The H2 molecule

doubled, just like in He.

s. I was digging a lot regarding this and it seems the diminishment of the molecular size is very slight in H2. Maybe I found bad references, but th

e H atom.

My reference reported about ten percent difference in the van der Waals vol umes of H2, He, which would mean those numbers don't fit. In terms of fitting through a pore, I think van der Waals is appropriate (but an electron 'shell' is really a cloud, the 'size' is a contrivance).

If the He and H2 volumes are ~ten percent apart, that's three or four perce nt diameter difference.

The H2 molecule can fit through a pore end-on, so the pore size is not a good proxy for the molecular volume.

But the H2 nuclei are about 0.74 Angstroms apart, that's not a lot of asymmetry. The material of the container/pipe/valve will also perturb the electron cloud, volume might be a better constant than any presumed electron orbital shape. Iron-iron spacing is about 2.5 Angstroms in a nonporous solid.