This is what has been bugging me. Imagine a family with two electric cars. 100HP (75kW) engine each - not too big, is it? On an average workday each driver commutes for on hour (lucky guys, aren't they?). It makes 150KWh energy needed to recharge the cars. Assume 10 hours (overnight) charge. It means 15kW of power (minimum) is delivered to the house. Do we have an infrastructure to support it? Am I missing something?
Yes. Just go sit in the corner. Suck your thumb. Then bend over.
Obama, with Al Gore's assistance, will make it feel good ;-)
...Jim Thompson
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| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Think things are bad now? Wait until Obama "takes care" of you.
On average, a car needs nowhere near 75kW. Some 10 to 15kW should do fine. Even so, you are right to believe that the current infrastructure wouldn't suffice if everyone used electric cars.
Jeroen Belleman
Answer, NO. We do NOT have an infrastructure to support electric cars. Keep in mind that an auto engine or motor, electric or gas uses a small fraction of its available power most of the time. Therefore the problem is not as bad as you propose.
Another issue is that 1/2 of the electricity generated in the US comes from burning COAL. What is the point of eliminating convenient liquid fuels and replacing them with the dirtiest fuel available and hooking up to that fuel with expensive 400 mile long extension cords?
Electric cars make little sense until the electricity itself is green or nuclear, non polluting.
You are probably right, but keep in mind that most of the people (at least current driving generations) won't accept that. It will take years and years and years (generations) to change this redneck my- truck-must-be-bigger-than-your-truck attitude. :o(
There might be a hidden benefit to having large numbers of electric cars. Nuclear plants run best @100% and storage of energy is a potentially huge cost. Other generation methods have similar limitations (eg. solar is only available when the sun is shining) unless they involve burning of fossil fuels. Having millions of high- capacity batteries paid for by consumers might not be such a bad thing. Those willing to load- level the grid (including the option to supply energy back into the grid) could get big discounts on the net cost of the energy they use. Most cars sit in a parking lot 90% or more of the time, so they'd be available for such duty.
Yep. Then we'll be weenies just like the Europeons ;-)
"Share the wealth" is just code for "Share the misery".
...Jim Thompson
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| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Why are Europeons so ignorant?
They think they know it all about the U.S.A.
But never have bothered to visit
But, of course, not everyone will buy an electric car immediately when they become available. As more and more cars come on line, then the electric company will be doing some dancing to put in all the additional service throughout all the towns and cities to support the additional demand
Either that, or solar chargers of some sort will become extremely popular... 8-)
Charlie
You misunderstand. _On average_, over the duration of any given trip, the power delivered to the driving wheels of a car is not close to the maximum power available from the engine. This is particularly true with muscle cars and cowboy-wannabe-trucks, but even little econo-boxes spend most of their lives at less than half throttle.
So unless you're _really_ driving like an idiot, a car with a 75kW _capacity_ isn't going to be _using_ 75kW all the time.
But we still have to work on our infrastructure -- electric cars don't eliminate pollution, they just move it way out to the boonies where the coal-fired electric plants are. As mentioned elsewhere, we _might_ be able to make this all work with demand-pricing, and chargers designed to use it. But it will take all sorts of work by lots of clever people, it'll take rule changes by leftist fundamentalists* who don't want to admit that they could possibly be wrong about the current rules and support from right wing fundamentalists** who don't even want to admit that we've got a problem.
I figure that we'll start using less power about the time that we all start dying off from whatever it is that we're doing that happens to start killing us first.
-- http://www.wescottdesign.com
How much of your car battery capacity would you be willing to sacrifice to load level the grid?
If you are prepared to sacrifice a significant amount what is the point lugging a heavy half empty battery around the country with you? Why not have a smaller battery to start with?
What does a daily (twice daily?) charge/discharge cycle do for the already short life of lithium batteries?
Well, they'd have to redesign the car to make the battery "pack" at all economical to replace in the first place. It's not exactly a cordless tool, swap the pack deal, and the "pack" alone costs more than most used cars. Only one or two states require that it keep working for a reasonable period of time - anywhere else, it dies, you have a humongous repair bill, or a dead (yet pretty) car.
Thing being, a Honda Civic hatchback gets nearly the same milage, did so years before the Prius came out, and isn't dead with no economically sensible repair at 10 years (if you actually get 10 years).
The current crop of hybrids are a car maker's dream, as they will need utterly nonsensical repair bills to ever become old cars, so they'll be run off to the junkyard at an early age.
-- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
So the premise is Joe Average burns 13kWHr driving to work, the grid taps him for another 15kWHr while at work, he burns
12kWHr driving home, then refills 40kWHr overnight.But plug-in hybrids' premise/promise is to use most or all of their charge on the way to work, recharge, then drive home.
GM's 'Volt' goes up to 40 miles on its 16kWHr pack before cranking up its ICE. And that costs $40k.
So when he gets to work, Joe's battery is empty, thirsty for juice.
As a first step to ultraefficiency, superlight, streamlined cars make sense. Add serial hybrid drivetrains if you want to go the extra mile.
(Amory Lovins says 2/3rds fuel savings is possible for about $0.15/liter.)
Better to use less energy to start with than to figure out better bleeding edge new ways to juggle and keep using the same amount.
Cheers, James Arthur
Yes, nuclear would solve a lot of problems, like CO2 and "dependence on foreign oil".
The REAL problem is, how do we get this information through the thick skulls of the paranoid bureaucrats?
Thanks, Rich
Parallel hybrids in conventional bodies don't really do much better than my Acura--Mom's Civic Hybrid gets about
44mpg, I get about 41mpg. The hybrids /are/ more efficient, but her car's heavier and more powerful. It needn't be either.The 2009 Nissan Altima Hybrid rates 35mpg and has a 158hp
2.5L gas engine.Sheesh. That should be 40hp electric, plus a 20hp ICE for recharging. Much more efficient, lighter, AND faster. A lighter car doesn't need as big an engine to be fast. Easier to make. Lighter=less materials used, cheaper, less waste, etc.
James Arthur
Probably up to half on a regular basis. Usually, I don't care if my gas tank is half full or compltely full. Particularly if I got the energy for half price.
Because sometimes I need more range, but that's not often, and I usually know in advance. Most of us have access to more than one vehicle so it doesn't have be right 100% of the time.
Battery technology needs to be up to the job.
Encase it in DU?
Wait until Oregon establishes their "road tax" based on mileage data obtained from GPS ;-)
...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama is about to make Herbert Hoover look like a financial genius
Not driving saves money. My 2001 truck has only 28K miles on it ;-)
...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama is about to make Herbert Hoover look like a financial genius
Snip..
Uh Huh! We certainly can see what happens when CONservative republicans "take care" of us. It's Herbert Hoover time all over again and ain't pretty! Thank you president Bush!
[snip SIG left by inadequate newsreader :-]
Nonsense, Bob! And you know it. General de-regulation by _both_ parties allowed this economic situation to happen.
Obama's "fix" ain't going to fix it.
Read up on FDR's "fix". If we hadn't had a war, we'd still be in soup lines.
We should have let the banks "fail". Our only cost would be FDIC coverage... far less than we're blowing now.
And the car companies... let 'em die.
But the Obama/Pelosi Congress is about to _require_ unions.
That ought to be neat ;-)
We'd be better off with the Mafia running our country.
...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama is about to make Herbert Hoover look like a financial genius
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