But electric cars, on the other hand, should get good mileage! Of course only when you operate them in the middle of the battery charge, so you can always charge the battery downhill.
Diesel busses are gone here. We only have LPG, CNG and Hydrogen busses (in addition to the electric ones). LPG is the direct replacement for Diesel in volume, the others are upcoming techniques that often are operating as experiments on a single line due to the infrastucture neccissity.
Don't hybrids have regenerative braking?
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Yes, but the battery is very small, and peaking out very often.
rote:
dHuh? Unless you charge to 100% at the top of a hill you can always regen. The speed is slower so less braking very near 100%. Anything below 90% gi ves full regen in my car. What you call the "middle of the battery charge" is 10% to 90%, the range you would normally operate the battery anyway.
Seems we can make hydrogen through electrolysis with 80% efficiency. That' s not really bad. If we have excess electrical generation capacity it can be used to make hydrogen which can be injected into the natural gas distrib ution system replacing carbon releasing gas.
They are looking at doing this in the UK since they seem to have a higher p roportion of gas heat in the homes and like it, they like it a lot!
-- Rick C. -+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
The hills here are short and choppy, just a few blocks long, yet hybrids don't do well. Maybe they have to use the real friction brakes a lot.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
On Sunday, 5 January 2020 09:57:11 UTC-8, Rick C wrote: ...
t's not really bad. If we have excess electrical generation capacity it ca n be used to make hydrogen which can be injected into the natural gas distr ibution system replacing carbon releasing gas. ...
Unfortunately the round-trip efficiency is more likely to be in the 30-40% region. The losses are a combination of theoretical limitations (~83% each way) and practical ones.
It can still be viable for long-term energy storage as the cost of hydrogen storage facilities can be orders of magnitude lower than batteries.
On Sunday, 5 January 2020 10:13:50 UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: .. can always charge the battery downhill.
All hybrids have regenerative braking, usually up to about 30kW or so.
The hills in SF are not long enough to peak out the battery on most hybrids .
..
It depends what you mean by "don't do well" - I expect they still do much, much better than conventional vehicles. If the hills are too steep the 30kW regeneration limit is reached and the friction brakes are used, in which c ase it does waste energy, but a significant fraction is still recovered for going up the next hill.
My Prius usually consumes only about 50-600% of the fuel of my Mazda 3 (com parable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the terrain . Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is always bett er, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.
ds.
, much better than conventional vehicles. If the hills are too steep the 30 kW regeneration limit is reached and the friction brakes are used, in which case it does waste energy, but a significant fraction is still recovered f or going up the next hill.
omparable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the terra in. Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is always be tter, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.
30 kW is about 40 Hp. I would expect a hybrid to have more power in the en gine and battery, but I guess they don't charge at near the same rate as di scharge. My car regens at up to 100 kW I believe. I guess that's an advan tage of a larger battery. I barely use the brake.-- Rick C. +--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
rids.
sch, much better than conventional vehicles. If the hills are too steep the
30kW regeneration limit is reached and the friction brakes are used, in whi ch case it does waste energy, but a significant fraction is still recovered for going up the next hill.(comparable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the ter rain. Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is always better, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.
engine and battery, but I guess they don't charge at near the same rate as discharge. My car regens at up to 100 kW I believe. I guess that's an adv antage of a larger battery. I barely use the brake.
and larger motor. It's too expensive to put in a big electric motor togeth er with a gas motor. That's why GM is dropping the volt.
hat's not really bad. If we have excess electrical generation capacity it can be used to make hydrogen which can be injected into the natural gas dis tribution system replacing carbon releasing gas.
% region. The losses are a combination of theoretical limitations (~83% eac h way) and practical ones.
Not sure what you mean by "round trip". Are you talking about the fuel cel l efficiency in a car? I have no idea what you mean about 83% "each way".
In the UK they want to use the H2 for heat which is pretty often 100% effic ient. I don't know of other uses for natural gas/H2 in this country than h eating the home, water, cooking... all of which are pretty efficient.
en storage facilities can be orders of magnitude lower than batteries.
Oh, I see from the link you are talking about grid storage by hydrolysis to H2. No, I don't think that would be a good idea. I was talking about H2 generation from excess electrical capacity such as solar or wind and storag e for use as gas, not to back up electrical use. By using excess capacity the price of the energy source is minimal.
-- Rick C. +--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
.
ybrids.
kes
much, much better than conventional vehicles. If the hills are too steep th e 30kW regeneration limit is reached and the friction brakes are used, in w hich case it does waste energy, but a significant fraction is still recover ed for going up the next hill.
3 (comparable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the t errain. Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is alway s better, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.e engine and battery, but I guess they don't charge at near the same rate a s discharge. My car regens at up to 100 kW I believe. I guess that's an a dvantage of a larger battery. I barely use the brake.
ther with a gas motor. That's why GM is dropping the volt.
Lol! The Volt, according to an owner here, it a very well balanced machine and I am pretty confident the electric motor is bigger than 30 kW, but I'm sure we will hear from him on this.
Volt, Volt, Volt. There, I've done the incantation and he will appear.
-- Rick C. +-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On Sunday, 5 January 2020 11:08:50 UTC-8, Rick C wrote: ...
(comparable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the ter rain. Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is always better, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.
engine and battery, but I guess they don't charge at near the same rate as discharge. My car regens at up to 100 kW I believe. I guess that's an adv antage of a larger battery. I barely use the brake.
... I was referring to a non-plugin hybrid such as a Prius. EVs and plug-in hyb rids such as the Volt have much larger batteries with higher limits.
I often do a complete drive without using the brake pedal on my Model 3 wit h the recently introduced single pedal mode.
The Tesla Model S has a 60kW limit on regeneration (That's what the indicat or on the dash maxes out at).
During regeneration, the power is mainly limited by the battery. In the cas e of the Prius this is 30kW for both charge and discharge. At some point, v ehicle stability will also be an issue with the regeneration only being act ive on one axle in the case of 2 wheel drive vehicles (your Model X may be less restricted).
The total system power of the Prius when the ICE and the battery are both p roviding power is about 100kW (135HP), ie about 70kW from the engine.
On Sunday, 5 January 2020 11:19:33 UTC-8, Rick C wrote: ...
40% region. The losses are a combination of theoretical limitations (~83% e ach way) and practical ones.ell efficiency in a car? I have no idea what you mean about 83% "each way" .
By round trip, I mean from electrical energy to hydrogen and back. They bot h suffer from theoretical losses since part of the energy is unavoidably co nverted to heat during electrolysis.
icient. I don't know of other uses for natural gas/H2 in this country than heating the home, water, cooking... all of which are pretty efficient.
ogen storage facilities can be orders of magnitude lower than batteries.
to H2. No, I don't think that would be a good idea. I was talking about H
2 generation from excess electrical capacity such as solar or wind and stor age for use as gas, not to back up electrical use. By using excess capacit y the price of the energy source is minimal....
OK - even then using the hydrogen for generating electricity is probably on e of the better applications.
Mixing hydrogen with natural gas has been proposed although it looks like a significant issue is leakage through piping walls due to the small size of the hydrogen molecule.
3 (comparable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the t errain. Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is alway s better, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.
e engine and battery, but I guess they don't charge at near the same rate a s discharge. My car regens at up to 100 kW I believe. I guess that's an a dvantage of a larger battery. I barely use the brake.
ybrids such as the Volt have much larger batteries with higher limits.
ith the recently introduced single pedal mode.
ator on the dash maxes out at).
ase of the Prius this is 30kW for both charge and discharge. At some point, vehicle stability will also be an issue with the regeneration only being a ctive on one axle in the case of 2 wheel drive vehicles (your Model X may b e less restricted).
providing power is about 100kW (135HP), ie about 70kW from the engine.
I can't verify the 60 kW number, but I won't argue the case. I know it is past 50 kW as that is the highest marking and the green thermometer line go es past that. Tesla is conservative in some regards as they highly protect the battery. They have very good thermal control, something the Leaf fail s to do while I don't know about the Bolt. I really hear very little about the Bolt either from owners (not so many around) or from the press who see ms to be ignoring the car, possibly because the public is as well.
Yeah, the Prius is no power house. The Volt on the other hand, seems to do respectably well for a small car. They gang the electric motor and ICE to get 233 hp it seems.
While it is not important to be able to break 11 seconds in the quarter mil e, it is nice to be able to get out of the way of the 18 wheeler keeping yo u from merging onto the highway.
-- Rick C. +-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
0-40% region. The losses are a combination of theoretical limitations (~83% each way) and practical ones.
cell efficiency in a car? I have no idea what you mean about 83% "each wa y".
oth suffer from theoretical losses since part of the energy is unavoidably converted to heat during electrolysis.
The reverse process is not hydrolysis... ??? The reverse would be a fuel c ell. I don't know much about them but there they don't have the "theoretic al" limitations that hydrolysis does.
Besides. you are talking about electricity storage. I was talking about us ing the H2 for heating. This makes good sense anywhere there is gas pipeli nes. They are very common in the UK it seems having been promoted some tim e back to use the plentiful gas from the North Sea.
fficient. I don't know of other uses for natural gas/H2 in this country th an heating the home, water, cooking... all of which are pretty efficient.
drogen storage facilities can be orders of magnitude lower than batteries.
s to H2. No, I don't think that would be a good idea. I was talking about H2 generation from excess electrical capacity such as solar or wind and st orage for use as gas, not to back up electrical use. By using excess capac ity the price of the energy source is minimal.
one of the better applications.
Not sure why that would be. It has all the same efficiency issues as natur al gas. I guess it is another way to provide peaking generation.
a significant issue is leakage through piping walls due to the small size of the hydrogen molecule.
In all the references I've looked at I haven't seen anyone state that as a show stopper until it is solved. What do you know about it? Hydrogen is n ot as small as helium.
-- Rick C. ++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
That's interesting.
A Hydrogen atom is one Proton and one Electron.
A Helium atop is two Protons, two Electrons and one or two Neutrons
You need to learn about 'hydrogen embrittlement in steel'.
Helium is a gas of atoms . Hydrogen is a gas of H2 molecules. He atoms are used in leak detectors for that reason. He is smaller than H2.
Yet you ignored the problem of 'hydrogen embrittlement in steel'.
.
ybrids.
kes
much, much better than conventional vehicles. If the hills are too steep th e 30kW regeneration limit is reached and the friction brakes are used, in w hich case it does waste energy, but a significant fraction is still recover ed for going up the next hill.
3 (comparable vehicles in size, weight and performance) regardless of the t errain. Yes, the absolute numbers will vary for both but the Prius is alway s better, especially in slow city traffic such as in SF.e engine and battery, but I guess they don't charge at near the same rate a s discharge. My car regens at up to 100 kW I believe. I guess that's an a dvantage of a larger battery. I barely use the brake.
ther with a gas motor. That's why GM is dropping the volt.
Hmmm, I dont believe that. The Prius effectively does the same thing and t hey have been around (and will continue to be around) for a while.
I haven't looked but I'd assume there are studies done about system efficie ncies wrt to hybrid vehicles/EV and moving the problem from the multitude o f gasoline vehicles to generating stations. In addition, many ppl throw out numbers for efficiencies of this electric m otor when motoring, or energy when doing regenerative braking, etc. but qui te frankly, all those numbers are useless individually - it is a SYSTEMS is sue and I'd like to think that at some point a number of math models were d one of various hybrid and EV configurations to a) evaluate component effici encies takeoffs and b) identify and design to real-world operational scenar ios/operational envelopes, and not just throw electric motors and internal combustion engines on a chassis and see who will buy it under the moniker o f 'environment friendly'...
As a side note, I am in the market for a new vehicle...I looked at a Toyota highlander hybrid. The base adder for a hybrid is about 1800 USD above th e gasoline version. I tend to keep my vehicles past 100K miles. By most a ccounts, the design lifetime of the battery packs are 100K miles, and the c urrent replacement cost is $4800 USD. Hmmmm do the back of the envelope ma th, and the gasoline fuel usage costs over the 100K lifetime compared to th e hybrid version has a much narrower gap that one would think. The cost of 'fuel' has been moved/redistributed. One could avoid the end of lifetime cost of a new battery by getting rid of the vehicle before having to buy a new battery pack - maybe that is what the manufactures are betting on. j
s a show stopper until it is solved. What do you know about it? Hydrogen is not as small as helium.
Hydrogen seldom exists as a single atom. That would be a free radical. Hy
?cule?
Then there is the fact that the two protons in a Helium atom hold the elect rons much closer than the single electron in the Hydrogen atom. So even a single atom of Hydrogen is half again larger than a Helium atom which has a full valence shell so doesn't form diatomic molecules. He has a diameter o
You need to learn about physics and chemistry.
-- Rick C. +++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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