Need some help, what is percentage US voltages on 115V, 208V WYE, 240V?

For example, nursing homes. Smaller facilities up to 12 beds are usually fed two-phase while the larger ones have a three-phase feed.

Small retail stores never have car chargers around where I live.

What was meant is not the distribution, that is generally three-phase. It's about the feed into the building. That is generally tow-phase 120/240V.

AFAIK that only goes for older buildings, in newer ones (as in "this century") I have never seen 240V receptacles without neutral.

I never said it has to be removed. It's grandfathered. What I said is that it is AFAIK no longer allowed in new construction or after a major remodel job. So it'll depend on where Klaus' products go. If it's new construction that one can usually assume the presence of the neutral connection.

Depends on where it goes. If at or near an A/C and heating system that can be a situation where there is no neutral. It's hard-wired with a pull-out shut-off but an electrician cannot easily install a 120V connection there unless he runs a new circuit.

I became sorely aware of that when moving to the US. Neitehr the printer nor the copier I brought from Europe worked because no enough juice in a circuit. Now that I started home-brewing it's the same. I have to use two 1kW burners back to back under the brew kettle, plugged into different circuits. Oh how I wish I could use one of those European 3kW burners.

For "continuous" loads the current must

Yup, unless always in a particular location.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I don't think there is a 12 bed nursing home anywhere around here. They ty pically aren't profitable and end up going out of business. I guess there might be some boutique places.

Sorry, I forgot that where you live is the typical for the world.

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Yes, for residences. The majority of businesses of any size receive 3 phas e.

If you mean 2000, yes, that is most likely true. The rule was changed by t he NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the states to adopt th at rule change since it is the states that make the laws. So about 20 year s. But the connectors are still widely in use. Actually, it is the 10 ser ies that is affected by this. The 6 series have a ground and no neutral. The 10 series has a neutral and no ground. lol

LOL I don't know what you are reaching for.

There's your problem. We don't have juice in our circuits. We have electr icity. A 240 volt connection is not hard to provide, it's just not common because we standardized on 120 volts in the home about a hundred years ago. Did no one tell you about that?

You could if you just ran a 240 volt line.

It sometimes seems like you go out of your way to make things difficult.

BTW, you do know you can get up to 1440 watts on a 15 amp circuit, no? You can get up to 1,920 watts on a 20 amp, 120 volt circuit. So you just need a 20 amp, 120 volt circuit, no 240 volt European heaters required.

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  Rick C. 

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240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

For the US pump, we need to make this funny conduit connection, where there is a regulatory defined minimum space for the connector, so that the service tech with his thick fingers, can mount the wires :-)

Thanks for the info, also to others replying on the thread, I am getting an better overview

Cheers

Klaus

Yes, I have lots of sense. A poster said that the European ring circuit is fed by fuses on both ends of the ring. Another poster clarified that is not true, there is only one fuse that feeds both ends of the ring. But if there were two fuses on each end of the ring, then when one blows there most certainly would be current in the second fuse and it would be about twice the previous current.

Simple enough?

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typically aren't profitable and end up going out of business. I guess ther e might be some boutique places.

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the NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the states to adopt that rule change since it is the states that make the laws. So about 20 ye ars. But the connectors are still widely in use. Actually, it is the 10 s eries that is affected by this. The 6 series have a ground and no neutral. The 10 series has a neutral and no ground. lol

That's incorrect. There is no code issue with installing a new circuit that uses a 240V receptacle without a neutral in the US. Why would there b e any issue? It's widely used for pool pumps as an example. The pump is 240V, it doesn't need a neutral. You may be confusing that with DRYER receptacle s, which are now required to be 4 wire, ie you can't use the neutral as a grou nd for new circuits.

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It's not referred to as two phase, but that is what is actually present. There are two hots that are 180 deg out of phase with each other, which is what you get from a center tapped transformer. You would model it as cos(wt), cos(wt+180)

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There will be a ground at any code compliant receptacles for over half a century or more. And rare to find a piece of equipment that doesn't use a ground, for obvious reasons.

Known as "split phase".

For 240V circuits, yes. There are all sorts of ungrounded 120V appliances.

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re is a regulatory defined minimum space for the connector, so that the ser vice tech with his thick fingers, can mount the wires :-)

"Funny conduit connection", do you mean the box the connector mounts in??? The minimum space is for the wires that connect to the connector. You hav e to have some inches (6 I think) sticking out of the box to give working r oom to the electrician installing the connector... but that's his job. Are you talking about the space around the receptacle for a person to plug in your plug?

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an better overview

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  Rick C. 

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  ---++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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by the NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the states to adop t that rule change since it is the states that make the laws. So about 20 years. But the connectors are still widely in use. Actually, it is the 10 series that is affected by this. The 6 series have a ground and no neutra l. The 10 series has a neutral and no ground. lol

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You didn't read what I wrote. I never said what you think I said. I did r espond to Joerge's statement incorrectly. I was talking about the code req uiring a separate protective earth while he was talking about the lack of a neutral.

What I said was correct though. I even gave examples of NEMA standard conn ectors that have no neutral. These are still in use. It is the 10 series with no protective earth that are deprecated.

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  Rick C. 

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  --+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

The whole point with multiphase system is to create a rotating magnetic fields for motors, so that these will reliably start.

One such system was the two phase used in Niagara Falls with a 90 degree phase shift system. Unfortunately it required moro/thicker wires than the three phase (120 degree) system for the same power.

The US 120-0-120 V system doesn't create a rotating magnetic field, it is just a single phase system. To start a single phase motor, a 90 degree phase shift is locally created with a starting capacitor. After starting a single phase system runs fine without the additional phase.

Even a three phase runs with a single phase if wye connected (or two phases if delta connected) with significantly reduced power, but it doesn't start without all three phases.

For some strange reason the US system is called anti-phase or split-phase system, while it is just single phase. You could as well have only a single 120 V (no center tap) feed into homes, the L and N wires would just be thicker.

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We all know that, but it isn't the correct terminology just as it isn't fac tually correct that current in a wire flows from + to -, but we all convent ionally talk about it as if it did.

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That is not correct. It was in 1996 that the NEC changed their rules about requiring a separate protective earth. My house built in 1987 has the NEM A 10-30 dryer connector with neutral and no earth. I should look to see if they actually ran an earth wire to the outlet box in which case I can chan ge the connector without running a new wire.

Anyone know if it is permissible to connect a protective earth from one cab le to another? If this outlet box has no protective earth, can I simply pr ovide one by other means or does this require a new cable be run? There's a 120 volt outlet with a proper ground right by the 240 volt outlet. Heck, for that matter I could put them both in the same box, right?

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  Rick C. 

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In this thread it has been referred to as two phase. But please see the link to which I referred that shows two phase as two voltages 90 degrees apart, not 180 degrees.

Do this: put two appropriately-valued and equal-valued resistors in series across your single phase outlet (any voltage) and attach your scope common to the junction of the resistors. Attach your two probes to the opposite end of the resistors.

You will see two voltages 180 degrees out of phase with each other. So, have you just created two phase from a single phase source with just a pair of resistors? I don't think so.

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I have no idea what anyone here knows or doesn't know, especially from some of the stupid posts. All I know is that I correctly pointed out that the split-phase service going into homes isn't called two phase, but there are two phases there. I'd also note that other posters have referred to phase one and two. But here you are, yapping away, so if you know that, what's your point?

but it isn't the correct terminology

It is correct that there really are two phases there, 180 deg out of] phase with each other. Again, I said, that isn't what it's called but it's what;s there. I suppose if one pointed out that Kleenex are really a soft paper product made from trees, you'd have issues with that too.

just as it isn't factually correct that current in a wire flows from + to - , but we all conventionally talk about it as if it did.

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ut requiring a separate protective earth.

BS. An equipment grounding conductor has been required at all new receptac les for over half a century. And since you want to yap about "terminology" that is what it's called, not a "protective earth".

My house built in 1987 has the NEMA 10-30 dryer connector with neutral and no earth. I should look to see if they actually ran an earth wire to the outlet box in which case I can change the connector without running a new w ire.

Confused again. It used the neutral as the equipment grounding conductor because that was permitted prior to a few decades ago. And it;s 99% that they didn't run an equipment grounding conductor, that was the whole point to using just 3 wires instead of 4.

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No.

If this outlet box has no protective earth, can I simply provide one by ot her means or does this require a new cable be run? There's a 120 volt outl et with a proper ground right by the 240 volt outlet. Heck, for that matte r I could put them both in the same box, right?

Why do you want to screw around with what is code compliant, safe and working? You claimed in another post that dryers are no longer sold that are 3 wire. That was wrong too. They are typically sold without a cord so you can put on either a 3 wire or 4 wire cord.

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That was one implementation of two phases. Just because that was one case, doesn't mean that if there was a power source with 95 deg separation, there would not be two phases. Or with 180 deg separation.

Yes, you have two voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other. You would model it as cos(wt) and cost(wt +180) or cos(wt) and opposite polarity, same thing.

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d by the NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the states to ad opt that rule change since it is the states that make the laws. So about 2

0 years. But the connectors are still widely in use. Actually, it is the 10 series that is affected by this. The 6 series have a ground and no neut ral. The 10 series has a neutral and no ground. lol

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respond to Joerge's statement incorrectly. I was talking about the code r equiring a separate protective earth while he was talking about the lack of a neutral.

I read exactly what you wrote. Joerge said you don't see 240V receptacles in the US without neutral this century and you said that's correct, that since 1996 a neutral has been required. That's wrong. You can still install a new 240V circuit with a receptacle and no neutral. It's done all the time Pool pumps are an example. Some people like them on a cord. It would be pretty stupid to have to run a neutral and install a 4 wire receptacle when the pump doesn't need and can't use a neutral.

nnectors that have no neutral.

Sure, but you said that after 1996 they can't be used on new 240V circuits. That isn't true.

. These are still in use. It is the 10 series with no protective earth tha t are deprecated.

But that isn't what Joerge said and you affirmed.

And again, since you want to bitch to me about "terminology", if you're going to be here telling people what the NEC allows or doesn't allow, a good start would be to use the correct term. It's called an "equipment grounding conductor', not a protective earth.

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That's one point, but it's hardly the only point. If it was we could have continued to use the old two phase system.

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact of what's actually there. If I took the old two phase, 90 deg and made it 100 deg difference, would there still be two phases? How about 179 or 181? Then how about 180?

I've never heard of it being called anti-phase, ever. And no, you could not just have a single 120V feed into the house because then you would not also have 240V.

The easiest way to demonstrate that they're not 180 degrees out of phase is to look at noise on the line - the two hots will have the noise at the same time but of opposite polarity, not 180 degrees later.

My house has ONE power line running up the driveway (7200 VAC plus ground) - I have my own 240VAC center tapped transformer for the house.

Two-phase power is used to run stepper motors, with the phases 90 degrees apart. Tesla originally wanted to use this for power distribution, but it required too many lines - three phase won out instead.

Maybe the people that run ours are smarter? It's often owners and worker of Philippine descent. The 11-bed home 2mi north of us that we visit every two weeks is a place I could really like if I'd need it at old age. And I am sure it'll be around because it is run well.

The majority are 6-bed though and IMO they are generally better than the really big ones.

California is typical. I get around a bit. BTW, it's the same in Nevada, Oregon, Idaho, and so on. Also, in case it has escaped you, California is the state where Tesla is located.

Nope.

I don't think no-ground would still fly with the inspectors in California.

[...]

Your crystal ball has fallen off the balcony. You do not know our house.

You tend towards premature conclusions. Running 240V to that place is not trivial at all in an existing structure with lava rock walls and stuff.

Peanuts. In Europe all the circuits were 230V 16A or higher. That's one of the few things I still miss. The others are bread dumplings and Leberkaese :-)

You are normally not supposed to have a continuous load near the circuit breaker limit. Anyhow, how does 120V 20A rival a 3kW burner? When brewing, heating times matter. A lot.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/