I have an electronics product idea but if it is any good it is out of my league. So I want to see if there is already a US patent covering it and if not I want to get a US patent.
I see various news reports of Nokia suing Apple, someone suing Blackberry, Intel, AMD etc.
If my idea is original and if it is viable would I be able to defend it against the big boys?
No.
IMO Best way is to make a full and _free_ disclosure in the public domain, and just get on and make/sell your item. There will be competitors, but there are always competitors.
-- Adrian C
I vote 'yes,' you can defend it, though it's a helluvan undertaking. In the US when a patent-holder sues there's a presumption of infringement in his favor--the defendant has to prove he's innocent. That's a big lever. It's often used unfairly.
Trade secrets are best--if your idea can reasonably remain secret that's the ultimate protection, and it's free.
Documenting your idea in writing, signing and dating it as "Inventor," and having someone sign and date it as "Witness" goes a long way to protecting your rights to a) patent your thing if you choose, or b) keep it as trade secret, provided the Witness is bound to secrecy. That also c), with significant limitations, prevents someone else from patenting and totally denying you your own invention.
-- Cheers, James Arthur
Do a patent search.
Sure, that's the way lawyers make money.
You can defend anything. No one however, can tell you if you'd win or not.
+++Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats getting complex legal advice from a Usenet group.
Some random thoughts:
1 - Most everything is already invented. 2 - At best, you'll find a niche (or omission) in the Claims language of similar patents, and be prepared to fight to obtain whatever value you are adding. That said, rarely, someone truly does push the envelope of innovation.3 - Depends on your ultimate customer: If big multi-national, they tend to value patent protections, and often will not move without it.
4 - However, that same set of folks tends to suffer from the "not- invented-here" syndrome, so good luck getting the right person's attention.5 - It's easy to check to see if your idea is patentable. You can usually do the search yourself. Just visit:
Oh, and be advised, there is an 18-month opaque filing window at USPTO that you cannot see through. Even if you spent millions on patent search help, there is still no way of knowing (for certain), that someone hasn't beaten you to the punch. In the case of patents, only time will tell. Period.
6 - Also, your idea must be non-obvious.7 - Getting a patent is NOT difficult. (Most folks think it is.) All it takes time, and money (a lot less money if you DIY). I think there is a certain allure to receiving a US Patent, but the truth is, you should really only want one that makes you money!!! I know folks who have handfuls of patents, and never made any real money. In fact, they probably lost money. I suspect most inventors fall victim to this., which leads me to....
8 - Never patent anything unless you have (or are really sure you will have) a paying customer at some point.9 - Be prepared to wait. US Utility patents can take several years to grant (and often longer). I have one pending now that's been at USPTO for a year, and hasn't even been assinged to an examiner yet -- and it's at least a year or two out from its first office action.
10 - There are horror stories about people who wasted their lives chasing royalties that never materialized, even in cases of blatant infringement. However, there are just as many stories with happy endings. Of all the people on the planet, you are best-equipped to make the decision.Good luck.
-mpm
At one time, ideas were worth as much as a dime a dozen. These days, they are worth less than ten cents a bale in ten bale lots.
See
-- Many thanks, Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Typo.
Should read...
"Documenting your idea in writing, signing and dating it as "Inventor," and having someone sign and date it as "Witness" does not do Jackshit.
Ideas are totally worthless until they are out of beta test and are a proven seller with a proven market.
If your "idea" is any good, it WILL be stolen. All the patent system does is formalize and drag out the inevitable process.
-- Many thanks, Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Only if you can sell to enough customers to make enough money to cover the legal costs, which can mount up rapidly.
If it really is a good idea, and you patent it - or at least start the ball rolling - you will have something that you could sell to one of the big boys.
One of my mates in Australia was the founding director of Optiscan, which exists mainly to collect the royalties on his patented - better
- way of building a confocal microscope.
It took years - and most of his family's capital - before he had a secure patent, but confocal microscope manufacturers around the world eventually stated paying royalties.
I limit myself to taking out a provisional patent in Australia (which costs $A80) and effectively registers a filing data for a year, by which time one should know if the idea is worth covering.
I've done it twice. The first idea - for using a particular sort of linear stepping motor in a piano keyboard - turned out to be defective when I looked into it in detail, and I was happy to let it lapse.
The second idea probably isn't going to be of any commercial interest, but $A80 isn't much to pay for insurance for I'm wrong.
-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
I disagree. Such paperwork proves invention, date of invention, and that you didn't steal it. That's especially valuable if you _don't_ patent.
Mostly, but it depends on the idea now, doesn't it? Each on its own merits. Or, as you put it on your website,
"For MOST individuals and small scale startups, patents are virtually certain to result in a net loss of time, energy, money, and sanity."
(emphasis added)
Usually they cost a fortune in time and treasure to get, and aren't worth the virtual paper they aren't printed on--but in rare instances they're the best choice. Trade secrets are absolute, don't expire, and cost nothing to get. Those are better, when possible.
In any event, documenting your date of invention costs zip, and protects in the ways I listed.
-- Cheers, James Arthur
That is the truth. The US Patent system does nothing but empower the guy with the most money. Our entire company policy has been to make a good product at a good price and let the copy cats fall all over themselves trying to knock it off, and by then we are on to the next product or iteration and their product is old news. Seems to have been working for the last 17 years.
Google "patent search" There used to be online patent repositories. Call the library. Ask them. BIG libraries sometimes have access for patent searches.
What's your point?
It LIKELY is not. and if it is viable It likely is not. would I be able to defend
Not a snowball's chance in hell.
A patent is a license to sue. Imagine yourself up against a hundred microsoft or nokia or ....lawyers. Even if you've been violated, you'll be bankrupt a decade before you ever get to court.
Ok, so you got everything right and are granted a patent. Now What? Can you afford to engineer, manufacture, distribute, service a product using your patent?
You can license it. You can sell it outright.
I've been away from it for a decade, but there used to be a thing called a "provisional patent". It was a short-form patent disclosure that cost $75 to file and gave you some limited protection for a year while you tried to market your idea and let the buyer complete the patent...or decided to complete the process yourself. There are a bunch of ways to shoot yourself in the foot and forfeit protection.
There was a local inventors club. A couple of dozen people with ideas and some attorneys to help you. This was a genuine club of helpful, experienced inventors. Not go be confused with "as seen on TV" fee based invention services.
Near as I could tell, the only guy who ever made any money did it on a plastic extrusion that was sliced up to make a pencil holder that clips on a sun visor. Was a giveaway marketing item for insurance companies etc. He made 2-cents each, but the volume was high. Not sure if he tried to patent it, but it succeeded because the market is vast it's cheap the big guys aren't interested
I don't have any statistics, but I estimate that the probability of a small guy making a killing on a patent is similar the chance of winning the lottery if you invested as much in tickets as you're gonna invest the patent.
The more complicated the idea and the more lucrative the market, the less chance you have to be successful. THE BIG FISH WILL EAT YOU.
One of the most telling factors is that patent litigation insurance typically costs over $100,000 per year. Per patent, of course.
-- Many thanks, Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Not even close.
The typical lottery is a MUCH better "investment" than a patent. Ridiculously and ludicrously so.
-- Many thanks, Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
It is totally worthless... If you don't have a patent, and someone else does, their patent will trump your 'statement' with no effort at all. The only thing that can protect you is to publish all details about your invention so that it becomes prior art--and that only helps if you are first, and give you no protection, just prevents others from patenting it.
"Raveninghorde"
** If the idea is any good - you did not think of it first.** Product ideas are not inventions and hence are non patentable.
.... Phil
,"
It's an interesting proposition (publish far and wide), and is one we're about to undertake.
Not by choice, but because the issue has reach ripeness and if we continue our present course (non-disclosure), the issue could pass us by. Luckily, we'll only shave off about 5 months until the USPTO would have published our application anyway. Still a couple years (at least!) away from an actual patent grant. And since we're not filing internationally, or via PCT, we're at least past the anxiety of the 1 year filing date anniversary.
So, in a couple months, maybe I can report back exactly what our experience is. Maybe customers will come out of the woodwork. (Where does that expression come from?)
Oh well... Promises to be an interesting February 2010.
You can do the search yourself, but I highly doubt a patent will make you any money. It certainly will cost.
Sure, but note that these aren't all patent disputes.
Unless you're wealthy enough not to need the money, no. The chances that you'll beat the "big boys" is miniscule.
s/proves/shows evidence of/
Proof of prior invention is good enough. The problem is the "proof" part. A court is unlikely to take a statement witnessed by your mother.
...and I thought Charles Duell died a century back. ;-)
Usually because they have no interest in you suing them for IP infringement.
"Non-obvious" doesn't mean what people usually think it means.
Not necessarily true. Often patents are defensive.
That's about right. I just had one issued and I haven't worked there for three years.
Just as many? You're an optimist. ;-)
You can do it online!
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