Getting idea off ground

That's the idea of patents: You have the idea, some companies sell the product and you'll get money for it, without doing anything for it.

If it is not really new, but a good idea which is worth to protect, in Germany you can protect it with a Gebrauchsmuster:

On Sep 13, 9:18=EF=BF=BDam, "Jon Slaughter" wro= te:

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As Frank mentions, you could file for Patent Protection. Then, you'd be selling rights to the Patent instead of the widget / idea itself. Obviously, the patent rights are more valuable if the patent actually grants, so don't expect a fortune, or even much interest pre-grant.

I have an engineering friend who often comes up with "good" ideas and then patents them. He's got it down to a science, and I would have to say some his ideas are pretty cool - and at one seems to be way ahead of its time.

The problem is, he spends between $1,000 and $5,000 per application and to date NONE of his patents have sold. Most due to lack of interest, or people figure they can bypass his claims and roll their own...

So I don't want to leave you with the impression that throwing money at a patent process will necessarily advance your cause.

What WOULD advance your cause is to make at least some sort of mock-up (even if it's literally cardboard!). Go test market it yourself - see if people are indeed interested as consumers.

Hate to break it to you, but the opinion of one person is not statistically significant - especially if its the opinion of the designer!!!! Don't assume because it's useful and cool that it will be a hit. Many aren't.

I'm a big fan of customers first. You can script up a non-disclosure, etc... if you have to, or just be prepared to file quickly if you get great response. But if you get luck-warm response.. MOVE ON. For what it's worth...

-mpm

I am helping someone with infra-red sensor detections, so he may be competing with you.

Yes, the price is negative 10K. Namely, he pays the company to prototype/build them.

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You do not need a lawyer or allot of money to patent an idea. Specially now with the Internet. If you have time and can so the research your self then all it costs is $500 for the US patent. You would think with Google and other search engines the fee and time to patent would drop. Go figure.

shortT

As Frank said, patent first, _then_ offer it to other companies. But it'll be a tough road. I am regularly approached by inventors who propose to go into business together but (so far) I had to decline all of them. Most prevalent mistakes I find:

a. Initial market way too small.

b. Unrealistic assumptions of NRE and production cost. Often they think "Oh, let's make a thousand units at first and see". Then when I tell them that the price per unit would increase by >1000% versus true mass production it completely floors them. Usually that's because you can't produce it in China with such low quantities. They are either not interested or charge an arm and a leg for tooling.

c. There is no sufficient cost benefit versus an already existing solution that the inventor considers inferior. Thing is, inferior or not, if the old concept makes enough money no corporation will be interested in a new concept.

d. Gross underestimation of the cost to get through agency approvals. Can easily exceed $100k.

e. No market study, or one that is based on too much hot air.

Now I don't want to discourage you or any other inventor but one must consider that the expense of patenting something needs to have at least some chance of an ROI.

And 99 and 44/100 % of them are cockamamy non-patentable "break-throughs" ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Actually in my case they are often non-patentable at all but more like applications of "customary art" in new ways, mostly medical. So it's mostly trade-secret based. Still, the vast majority of the ideas don't fly or can't get funded. Those that do get funded usually rough up the competition pretty good. The topper was one where a major corporation threw in the towel after a few years, couldn't keep up. Completely pulled out of that particular market, initially I could not believe it. Like David against Goliath. We all jumped for joy but in hindsight the joy isn't that great, considering how many people must have found pink slips on their desk that Monday.

While to an engineer it would seem that the important work is cooking up the idea, in reality the work that's going to make the money is manufacturing it for a reasonable price and getting it into the hands of customers for enough money to make a profit. So what you're proposing to do is to go to the money people and say "I've done the easy part, now pay me a chunk of cash to make it profitable!".

A few folks make money patenting and peddling (or prosecuting). Most folks who make money from technological advances do it by starting companies, getting the whole chain from design to distribution established, then selling the whole caboodle to a big competitor.

Guys, this is not an "invention" or a technical breakthrough but an adaptation of something that already exists. I doubt a patent would protect anything as they need to be specific.

It's an idea, say like a better fly swatter(hehe, if there is such a thing ;), that can be used to make peoples life easier.

I wouldn't want to give away the idea but basically it would eliminate theft of certain things(ok, that is actually the goal but it would definitely reduce it drastically). In fact there is something out that already sort of does it almost in the same way but it can be improved upon so that it works much better. There are a few kinks that need to be worked out and it's usefulness depends on several factors(it could be improved a great deal by integrating it with other systems but that complicates things).

There is a huge market for it because people don't want their shit stolen.

I just read up on the thing that already sorta does what I'm talking about and it almost does exactly what I'm talking about except doesn't take it that extra step. It is patented though so I'd have to deal with that. I think might idea is an extension of theirs so I dont' think I'd be violating their patent.

Basically, an analogy, would be that I have an op amp with much better gain. It's not that big a deal but of course it's just better ;) Now one would look at the cost and I believe that the cost of each op amp wouldn't be more than any other basic op amp.

In fact there seems to be two products that do what I'm suggesting and they offer many things that my idea offers. (I didn't realize they did that many things) My product still does what it does in a different way though and it has it's pro's and con's. (it's definitely different in how it works)

Do you think I'd have a much better shot if I approached the companies and tried to pawn my idea off on them? Maybe even try, if they are interested, in getting a bidding war?

You can patent improvements on existing patents.

It probably wouldn't work. You'd have to get them to sign an NDA before you revealed the idea, and hardly anybody would. It's like sending scripts to Hollywood producers; most are sent back unopened, because of the hazards of reading one and later doing something similar themselves.

Most simple ideas like this can't be exploited. A patent is the only practical path, and it's expensive, and it's just the beginning of the legal wars.

Contact the existing patent holders; maybe you can negotiate something with them.

John

How does that compare to a US design patent?

I think an US design patent is something like a Geschmacksmuster (strange word for this kind of protection, even in German :-)

and an US utility patent is something like a Gebrauchsmuster.

On Sep 13, 2:11=EF=BF=BDpm, "Jon Slaughter" wro= te:

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Reviewing the above, maybe your best bet is to file a Patent Application. If the existing widget patents A, B & C, your will patent A, B, C & D. D being your improvement.

Contrary to popular belief, the USPTO will grant a new patent that if implemented, would necessarily violate someone else's patent.

Anyway, get D underway, then approach the owners of A, B & C and see if you can work out some reasonable deal.

You can save some time & expense by filing a Provisional Patent Application (last time I checked). However, there are pros and cons to this approach.

Pros - you don't have to write the claims section (or oath or declaration either, not that that will save you any time...). And it costs less to file.

Cons: the USPTO doesn't even look at them. All it does is establish an early filing date IF, within 12 months you follow-up with a regular application. Also, if you screw up the Provisional, you can actually hurt your chances of a) early filing, or b) actually getting a patent. So don't screw it up.

Once a provisional or regular is filed, you can legally say "Patent Pending". That might help your sales, if you have a non-savvy buyer.(?)

-mpm

Big companies do the same thing. Often to their detriment because they potentially miss a huge market without even knowing.

Jon, if you do approach a company build a device, or better several. They won't want to listen to a dog and pony show on PowerPoint. But if they can take it into their hands and try it out, for example try to "steal" something and see what your device will do versus the other one, that can do the trick.

That's what I would do. Anything else can lead to a saloon fight.

Better check with the USPTO for the filing fee...

It's been over 12 hours since the OP's post. Where's Don Lancaster and his patent rant(s)?

Lancaster says a bunch of stuff about patents, as well as how to get inventions into the marketplace, on his site at tinaja.com.

Also there are many firms who will "help you get a patent and pitch your idea to industry" for a "nominal fee." Basically, they're only in busiess to collect the "nominal fee." There's one I've heard advertsing on the radio in recent years. Stay away from such companies.

Against my advise, my client filed for a patent before we are done with the prototype. The patent firm told him it doesn't matter if we have a working prototype or not. So, they went ahead with the patent and we went ahead with the design, which is totally different with what they patented. Needless to say, the patent company got paid more than we did.

The first thing a good idea needs is someone willing & capable of selling it.

Ok, let's assume it's a good idea.

If it's not something you can start on your own then forget it.

Your chance of that borders on zero I'm sorry to tell you.

That does not sound right. 100's of thousands of dollars just for a prototype or concept demonstrator, this thing must be ridiculously complex.

To get anyone interested at all you need to seriously re-evaluate the design concept and come up with a cheap concept demonstrator for something you can afford yourself. Your time is free, other people's time is very expensive.

Then it's dead in the water. Idea's a dime thousand, and I'd bet you money someone has already had the same idea you have, and possibly even had a go at it.

You have no real idea of such numbers.

The final product maybe, but a concept demonstrator doesn't.

Stick to projects ideas you can do yourself, your chance of success will increase a thousand fold.

Dave.