generator conclusion

service

120vac 120vac signal o o o | | | o o------------* \ main \ | o o | | | | | house | | | | | | | | | barn | (COIL) --- --- | generator ignition -/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o | | | | o generator o | --- --- --- N.O. - | gnd | --- - chassis

This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.

All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized

24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.

  • if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid. To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be ok.

  • if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator. If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will still be ok.

I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks, and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear? It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the consumer grid abyss.

I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they just don't know.

Reply to
Jon
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R.I.P. Moron.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Jon wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 02:45

"your needs?" but not the needs of others? How selfish.

You really are both stupid and stubborn.

You cretin. What if the lose of your utility supply is due to your incoming wire having dropped off the pole? You won't be connected to the local network, but your wire in the street is now live.

I'm glad you don't live anywhere near me.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Reply to
Tim Watts

More likely this post can be used to show that he killed a linesman deliberately after having been warned publicly that what he proposed was dangerously unsafe and against all installation codes. It is no longer accidental manslaughter when the danger has been clearly explained.

It isn't like he doesn't understand. Definitely headed for a Darwin award. Pity he will take out some poor linesman out in the process.

Regards, Martin Brown

Reply to
Martin Brown

Work? Not likely. Safely? Never.

And screw any innocent people, and utility workers who get hurt because you are stupid.

All we hear is an idiot who cares for no one else but himself and his pocket book.

As Phil would put it: "You are a clueless wanker."

Do it properly. Use a proper transfer switch. But you don't care about anyone but yourself.

Reply to
PeterD

Unfortunately the only person who will be RIP will be someone other than the moron who posted this thread.

Reply to
PeterD

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Then you're either a bull-headed idiot or a troll.
Reply to
John Fields

Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-) ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

Jim Thompson wibbled on Monday 01 March 2010 17:19

That would be valid if the fool was only at risk of killing himself. I'm all for a man doing as he pleases on his own land (the UK is bogged down by regulations - you need Building Control to change a window here!).

But what Comrade Jerkov here keeps failing to see is the effect he may have on someone not on his land. Despite being told, politely, then in no uncertain terms.

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Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Reply to
Tim Watts

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Reply to
Mark

No, this will not work.

When the external power goes out, the relay will be de-energised, causing the generator to start, and to be connected to your loads, and to the outside power distribution system, and to your control relay, which will promptly turn off the generator. More likely, other loads on the outside distribution system will overload the generator, either causing it to stall, or tripping its output breaker. The generator will energise the outside distribution system, at least briefly, potentially causing electrocution hazards to others.

Read, understand, and follow the NEC's requirements for standby generator wiring.

There are two safe, legal, ways to do this. One is to use an approved automatic transfer switch. The other is to use two mechanically-interlocked switches or breakers arranged so that either commercial power or your generator (but never both) can feed your house and barn. The latter system, of course requires manual operation when switching to or from the generator.

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Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
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Reply to
Peter Bennett

I agree with Peter Bennett on this, it will not work, there's no way to seperate your "signal" from your feed line, as soon as the genertor puts out voltage (assuming, as Peter says, it doesn't get loaded down by your neighbours) the relay will pull in again shutting your generator off. By the way, simply energising the igniton doesn't mean it will start, for that you need a starter contactor, a timer to run it & a whole bunch of other stuff to handle "won't start" situations. By the way, are youe *sure8 that fourth wire isn't there as a ground?

or a neutral?

a) this is clearly criminaly negligent

&

b) actually this is pretty ggod way to to fry your generator, and all your appliances- see below.

What happens when the coil burns out?

With your design leaving the swith on or off is immaterial to powering the house. thats assuming you arn't trying to power the whole meighbourhood, see below.

The last time I'm aware of a genset feeding a building load at the same time as mains came in it blew every fuse in the building. Since it was my boss who did it everyone though it was hilariously funny except for upper managment who were understandably perturbed that a cross country (& trans atlantic) telecommunications relay system was down flat for 2 hours while a suitable number of new fuses were found & installed.

If you can't afford one of these

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then you can't afford fuel for your genset anyhow.

If you beleive that than your understanding of basic eletricity is sorely lacking. If your genset is isn't so loaded down by the neighborhood load that it stalls out or the breaker pops (assumiong the genset has a breaker) then it's putting out lethal voltages into the primary lines. sure, you say you''ll turn off the main breaker to isolate yourself from the grid but what happens if you arn't at home? What iff you arn't at home & the power is down beacuse linemen are working on the primaries and now your genset is backfeeding them? Are you really so callous about endangering the lives of the linemen?

Scared? Nobody in this thread has come across as scared, just knowledgable are responsible. I'm no big fan of over-regulation & the resultant inspector burocracy but it's a sad fact that if it wern't for people doing stupid things (yes, like you're- against *ALL* good advice thats been given- about to) we wouldn't have most of the rules we do have.

I've done some truly, remarkably, stupid things in my life, sometimes against all good advice. Take it from a pro, you're heading down the wrong road on this.

H.

Reply to
Howard Eisenhauer

His IP resolves to: Middleburg, Virginia. Maybe the local authorities would like to hear about his plans?

IP Information - 4.248.254.21 IP address: 4.248.254.21 Reverse DNS: dialup-4.248.254.21.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net. Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified] ASN: 3356 ASN Name: Level3 (Level 3 Communications) IP range connectivity: 2 Registrar (per ASN): RIPE Country (per IP registrar): US [United States] Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars] Country IP Range: 4.0.0.0 to 4.255.255.255 Country fraud profile: Normal City (per outside source): Middleburg, Virginia Country (per outside source): US [United States] Private (internal) IP? No IP address registrar: whois.arin.net Known Proxy? No Link for WHOIS: 4.248.254.21

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Greed is the root of all eBay.
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Michael, Can't you just forward this whole thread to Middleburg, and let them draw their own conclusions ?:-) ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

energized

I would prefer that someone in that area make the report so it would get more attention.

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Greed is the root of all eBay.
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Wrong. It will feed power back to the grid *EVERY* time the grid power is restored with the mains switch still on and the genset running. When the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time for the relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During that brief period the genset will be connected to the grid. That period, no matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".

His ONLY means of "not ever" feeding power back to the grid with his hairbrained scheme is to trip the main breaker. Even then, note that he is tapping power from the service panel BEFORE the main breaker, which itself is a serious hazard. A short from genset output to the signal wire will feed power out via the signal wire, even if the mains breaker is tripped. So even with the main breaker tripped, we cannot accurately state that power will not ever be fed back to the grid.

And there's more. What happens when the N/C contacts weld? Or the N/O contact goes open? Or the coil fails? Or the unfused signal wire shorts to ground? Or goes open somewhere between the mains and the relay?

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

needs, I=20

energized=20

You have been told the right way several times. You did not read what = you=20 need to know. This has safety and operational issues that you are = willfully=20 ignoring. Your design will not work, and it may kill people including = your=20 own family members.

we=20

grid.=20

still be=20

No it won't!! Your generator will them be tasked with powering up all of= your=20 neighbors, perhaps for many miles until that main is manually switched. =20 And 10 kW ain't nearly enough to power all your neighbors, then the = genset dies,=20 perhaps with gouts of flame. Get the picture?

Get a pro to install an Automatic Bus Transfer Switch (ABT) and an = automatic=20 generator starter circuit.

feed=20

generator.=20

there=20

No it won't as described above.

sharks,=20

=20

Wannabe. It is neither effective nor workable.

=20

Depends on how close the lineman is.

And that means there won't be any left for you without the transfer = switch.

Like Hell! You do not understand what it has to say about emergency = power=20 systems.

=20

They have been giving you better ideas, you just do not want to use them.

I do know, it is part of what they test for when you take the PE = examination=20 for electrical engineers. I have had my license for 15 years. And i do=20 know what i am talking about.

Reply to
JosephKK

generator ignition

o

=A0 =A0 =A0 |

=A0---

=A0 =A0 =A0 --- N.O.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ---

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-

=A0 =A0 =A0 chassis

needs, I

energized

we

grid.

His genset starts and connects to the existing house and barn bus, the=20 existing main is still on, thus he tries to power up all his neighbors=20 for miles around.

Reply to
JosephKK

The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever the main switch is on. The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever there is grid power at the service terminal.

Mark

Reply to
Mark

Mark wibbled on Tuesday 02 March 2010 15:00

Please don't encourage him.

With all due respect, in this context it doesn't matter if the logic is "right", the design is wrong. Too many potential fail-hazard scenarios which are easily avoided.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Reply to
Tim Watts

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