Generator Hookup

We already did that - a listed Transfer Switch is the *only* code compliant method, period. Why is it you are so resistant to making this generator hookup in a legal manner? An Automatic Transfer Switch will do everything you want, hookup is trivial, parts readily available, and if the installation is done correctly you will be 100% safe and legal.

You only need a transfer switch with the capacity of your generator, not the capacity of your main service. Decide what loads need to be on the generator, put them all on a separate panel, and feed that panel from the transfer switch (which will get it's mains power from a branch breaker in your main panel, rated about the same as the generator and within the rating of a small automatic transfer switch).

You seem willing to go to a lot of trouble to make an illegal hookup; why not a little bit of trouble for a safe, legal and reliable hookup?

Jon wibbled on Monday 08 March 2010 13:53

To switch the entire house over, you need a changeover switch or relay rated to full utility supply current (ie whatever your utility protective fuses are rated at). The key word is changeover - nothing else will do.

You do not appear to have that device in your inventory.

The other solution is to split your house circuits into 2 groups, essential and non essential and put the wiring to each on separate breaker panels. Use the 30A DT relays to switch the supply to the *essential* breaker panel between utility and generator.

This ASSUMES the relay in question has the required isolation parameters and is GUARANTEED break before make.

Also, you would probably feed the utility supply to the "essential" breaker panel from a 30A breaker off the main panel to provide adequate protection to the relay and wiring which constitutes the distribution circuit.

And you may need to sort the grounds out in the event of local supply.

What I've described would more or less fit with the British IEE Wiring regs, but would need cross checking in detail with the NEC and any local codes.

But there is a lot riding on the transfer device specifications due to the fault currents it may be expected to handle (100's of amps at least - here my potential short circuit current is 1200A at 240V, supply impedance having been measured at around 0.2 Ohm) and the isolation characteristics - even I would be unhappy about putting an unapproved part to that use.

Would a say, 500A surge weld your contacts before the main fuses clear the fault?

Do not even think about using your 3pst relay to isolate the utility incomer, that would be against the rules here with good reason and I would wager it is against yours.

Here it considered quite normal to split the wiring into 2 groups as most home generators would never supply a house under full load and are used just to keep the gas/oil heating going and a few lights.

However, it probably won't be any cheaper to buy and install a second panel than it would be to buy a type approved transfer device and sleep easy at night.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

I would have thought that this subject had already been talked out.

This sort of project should only be undertaken by someone with a full understanding of the engineering and safety principles involved. It is not for the hobbyist or handyman.

Judging by the questions you are asking, you are not such a person.

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
                                             (Stephen Leacock)

--
Rather a juvenile outburst, but hardly a surprise.

If someone has a trace on the guy, report him to his local power company.

Otherwise he's liable to kill someone.

Or tell me and I'll do the deed... I have no problem being the "rat" :-)

I do vaguely remember he's in Virginia somewhere? If so I can send one of my redneck relatives to "educate" him. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
      The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

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You could give me the bill of materials for a guillotine. Doesn't mean I want to cobble one out and try it on myself.

Sounds like you're pretty fixated on doing something that is likely (and has gotten) people killed in similar circumstances.

Just remember: Good judgement comes from bad experiences, which come from bad judgement.

You are evidently still on the tail end of the above adage.

I think the utility company can and will do a suitable job of educating; in cases I have heard of where illegal generator hookups were found the utility disconnected the service with notification that they would reconnect only upon receiving a copy of the inspection report from a licensed electrical inspector. How many utility companies can there be in Virginia? I'll bet that any of them would get the warrant to get his address from his ISP if provided with a copy of his message asserting his intentions of making an illegal generator hookup. Then the correct utility would have no trouble getting a warrant to inspect his premises.

If I were him I would be prepared to show them the inspection report for the legal installation when they show up. Probably he needs to hire an electrician to do that; he obviously has not read the NEC.

What? Have you deviants flipped your lid? Knowledge is free. But just try to get your hands on telephone electronics. It's proprietary information. There are no books on it at the library. All they show is how the keypad makes beeps. The rest is secret. How do you multiplex 4 dedicated lines through one wire? What's the code? But knowledge is free, and nobody's going to get electrocuted with phone line voltage. So what's the problem when I'd like to know the information on connecting a generator?

I shouldn't have listened to you guys and just built my own knife switch for

10 bucks. It's impossible to make before break and would have worked fine.

I have a couple of electrician buddies. One of them would probably do the work for me, but why? Disconnect the service, saw the cable, stick the transfer switch in between and it's done. Then I also have a service disconnect for future wiring problems.

I live in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Look me up on 7th Street and I'll have my brass knuckles to serve you teeth lunch.

What do I know?

What don't I know. Obviously more than all of you combined. Is there an engineer in the house? Then find out where I went wrong with this

I didn't go wrong with any of it. Then what makes any of you think I know nothing about anything?

The 240 volts come from two 120 volt signals phase shifted by half a period. Am I right? Am I wrong? How many of you know that? Or are you just pretenders?

With 3-phase service, by what fraction of a period are each of the phases shifted? ANSWER ME. What is the maximum peak-to-peak voltage?

Jon wibbled on Wednesday 10 March 2010 05:33

Right

120 degrees

Of what - phase to neutral or phase to phase? sqrt(2)xRMS(L-N) or sqrt(2)xsqrt(3)xRMS(L-N) respectively.

So, you're a mathematician who can handle sin(). Last person IME who should be let near a high energy system.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

I've followed your threads but have so far refrained from posting, but I think it's time someone other than those who have replied told you where you stand. You were given good advice and vital cautions time and again. But you not only ignored them, but kept responding with unwarranted belligerence. Your attitude obviously kept others from following up with more good, patient guidance.

You may be good at math but you know so little about electrical/electronics engineering that you don't even know how little you know. Those challenge questions of yours are so elementary that I doubt anyone would dignify them with answers. It's like asking a group of A+ high school students if they know to spell 'apple'.

So do yourself a favor. Go over this thread and the previous ones. Check the replies. If you don't understand or don't agree with some points, ask specific questions in a civil manner and read the replies with a receptive attitude.

Tell that to someone who has got hold of a ringing line!

-- "Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it." (Stephen Leacock)

WTF has the ability to program geometrical graphics got to do with the ability to design medium current switchgear?

WRONG! The two 120 volt supplies come from a single transformer secondary at 240 volts, center tapped to ground/neutral. That isn't phase shifting, it's phase splitting. Phase relationships are preserved wherever you put the tap relative to either end.

They are not shifted. They are *generated* with a 120 degree (one third of a period) relationship.

What do you mean by "maximum peak-to-peak voltage"? That would depend upon whether the voltage is varying. If the voltage is constant, the maximum equals the average. Peak to peak voltage is 2 * V(RMS) * sqrt(2).

If you are referring to 3-phase *wye* connected supplies, phase-to-phase voltage equals phase-to-neutral voltage times sqrt(3). This applies whether you take RMS, peak, or peak-to-peak.

Evidence of sloppy thinking on your part.

Now tell me how to do wye/delta transformations.

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
                                             (Stephen Leacock)

"He who knows, and knows that he knows. He is a wise man, seek him. He who knows not, and knows that he knows not. He is a child, teach him. He who knows, and knows not that he knows. He is asleep, wake him. He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool, shun him."

Old Arabic proverb (IIRC)

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
                                             (Stephen Leacock)

The info is out there if you keep looking.

These days, VOIP. in the past some sort of FDM.

The lowest voltage fatal electric shock that I am aware of was 42V telephone on-hook volage is 48V, ring voltage is even highrer.

bye.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: snipped-for-privacy@netfront.net ---

=46rom the headers he might be anywhere on the planet, but most likely in= the US

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

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in=20

15amps 300vac

I=20

did I=20

you=20

=20

If you post like some half-crazy backwoods hick with no edjumacation with= a big=20 attitude you will be treated as one. =20

You were told repeatedly, get a licensed and bonded contractor to install= a=20 proper transfer switch. It will protect your generator far better than = any=20 half-baked, made from non-rated spare parts, system you have posted.

[snip]

So you know where North Mountain is? And Franklin, WV (where my hillbilly relatives live)? I'll send them over to Harrisonburg and have them talk to the building inspector.

You done gone and deprived a village of an idiot :-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
      The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

Elaborating... I mentioned "redneck" relatives before. The relatives in Franklin, WV, _are_ hillbillys who travel regularly to Harrisonburg to shop... Franklin is just slightly more than a wide spot in the road.

The redneck relatives (by marriage) are in Richmond, probably 5 times further away. He is indeed a redneck, has done hard time for various felonies, including drug possession. He'd be ideal to have a visit with the Jon "brass knuckles" idiot :-)

Thanks for the approximate address, nice short street, though I imagine they can find you exactly from your posting IP. Enjoy! ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
      The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy