economics, depressing

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" Today in America there are nearly twice as many people working for the government (22.5 million) than in all of manufacturing (11.5 million) "

I don't understand why they want people to make things. Making things is not profitable. Trading is.

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Reply to
Nico Coesel

I could only wish this was an April fools gag but sadly it isn't..

"More Americans work for the government than work in construction, farming, fishing, forestry, manufacturing, mining and utilities combined."

It's even worse then I had thought..

And most of these bureaucrats... not only are they not helping the cause, they are busy making speed bumps to slow the rest of us down.... here you need to fill out these 5 forms and plead your case and wait 6 months till we make up our minds before we can allow you to erect a 35 foot tower next to your 30 foot building...

the irony of this is that we would be better off putting many bureaucrats on welfare and pay them to stay home..... we're already paying their salary, at least when they are on welfare they are not doing any more damage...

oh boy...now I've done it... I better start wearing my aluminum foil hat...

Mark

Reply to
Mark

This discussion about how manufacturing jobs have fled the US and how jobs in the US have increasingly become service sector, is not at all new. I remember reading, during Clinton's era, that the service industry employed twice as many workers as manufacturing. It's not good news, but it is old news.

Regarding the gov't vs private, in 1960 (the year chosen by the author) there was no welfare to speak of. (I know this personally, since my dad died when I was 7 and I had to work the fields (berry and vegetable) to help us survive through the 60's and there was no welfare or 'loaves and fishes' or other services we could 'tap into' at the time -- no medical, either.) There was no access to schools by those with disabilities, because it wasn't until 1970 when that law (PL

94-142) was finally passed. Nor was their early intervention (PL 99-457) passed in 1989 for implementation in 1991. Etc.

So much has changed from 1960 to now and I've only listed just a few that affect my own life. So I would suppose that providing a floor below which the poorest in our society cannot sink (not necessarily a bad thing) that has changed since 1960 would account for some of that cross-over.

It would take a much deeper analysis than that article provides to know what's important to focus on. But it certainly raises a question to ask, while at the same time playing into those who already hold "gov't is bad" in mind without really doing the question any serious service.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Manufacturing will return to the US. Eventually the Chinese will wise up and discover that their interests would be better served by using their manufacturing base to support their own population, rather than propping up the desires of the US consumer for cheap goods in exchange for IOUs. When this happens manufacturing in the US will again become profitable as the cost of imported goods soars. In an ironic reversal of fortune, the Chinese, finding themselves awash in the trillions of cheap dollars we've sent them, will use their newfound purchasing power to buy our goods at discount prices, pushing up the costs of goods for Americans still higher.

It will then be our workers making widgets at $4.00 an hour to support their exploding middle class, not the other way around.

Reply to
Bitrex

People expect more services and protections from the government so what do they expect- there's no free lunch here. The author is an economist and therefore pathetically unqualified to interpret his superficial statistics. As an engineer, I'm sure you can appreciate the orders of magnitude increase in complexitity in infrastructural engineering and ongoing maintenance of such things as roads, water treatment, drainage, and managing population growth demands on scarcer resources and space, as just one example; and who says governmental overhead scales linearly anyway. Just because the US can't manaufacture anything anymore other than some paper-based scam bs like the dotcoms and subprime mortgage backed securities has nothing to do with government overhead and everything to do with a worthless and pervasive trash mentality of the people themselves.The US is finished and it's only a matter of time before total collapse.

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

Crazy talk.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

With some truth in it. We have the same problem in europe as well. Here's a post from another group (comp.arch) which struck some sort of chord here:

Regards,

Chris

Reply to
ChrisQ

Not really. There has to be a balance otherwise we will be stepping in one financial crisis after the other.

The countries with the highest GDP per capita actually produce very little. Most people are employed in services. It is a very socialistic point of view to say that people should work in a factory and make something to earn a living. Most profit on a product is made after it has been produced. In other words: you should not produce but trade what other people make.

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Reply to
Nico Coesel

However, you need that industrial base, where people actually produce THINGS, not ideas, not numbers in computers, not do you want fries with that, in order for an economy to be stable. In the US, we have been exporting that aspect of our economy too long, and now are starting to pay the piper...

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

Actually, you can produce ideas and sell a service for the common good of our country. Case in point: Me. I have clients outside the US who pay me for ideas how to redesign something, make some design better, or do a whole new design for some electronics. Afterwards, money is paid to me and I pay federal and state taxes off of that.

The key is this: Export. Whether it's ag products, electronics, music, films, software, ideas, a service, doesn't matter. If someone outside the country pays someone in the country for something they get in return that is true export. It does not have to be a material thing that is exported. Sometimes those foreign companies then make something new with ideas from our country, and we might import some of their stuff. Just like what happens with Intels processors, many are used to design new stuff via CAD. It's all give and take and at the end of the day the balance between how much we import and how much we export (in value, regardless of category) that matters.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Reply to
Joerg

Not depressing. We're more productive than ever. Four things are more expensive than they were when I was born ( 1960 ) - education, housing , medical care and government.

The first three have been heavily subsidized by the fourth. So it's a *VERY* simple message - subsidies mean you have more of it, and it costs more.

Nobody seems to understand this.

When Arnold Kling tells a subcommittee that decades of subsidizing housing have meant that people are forced to gamble on housing ( his metaphor for five percent down ), he's brought to task for "incivility".

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I think the problem is Arnold's presentation ( he stammers and stuff) - and I have seen him do better. So talking to Congrefs is like talking to a dog - all they hear is your tone of voice, not the words. And there's a serious Suits vs Geeks thing going on....

But the facts are completely lost on them. This is much more serious than the ratio of people employed in various sectors. It is like they want to know what subsidies they can add to fix wreckage caused by the other subsidies!

-- Les Cargill

Reply to
Les Cargill

If they're interested in our goods, they won't be paying discount prices for 'em. Right now and for the forseeable, they're not interested and can't afford them. Except for iPhones :)

pushing up the costs of goods for Americans

This is pretty unlikely, and if it does happen, it is 50 years out. Te problem is that manufacturing is not *easy*, but it is mostly a solved problem, so there's not going to be a lot of increase in value from it any more.

-- Les Cargill

Reply to
Les Cargill

Really? So, why is the S&P index up about 6% in 3 months? US companies must have some value?

-Bill

Reply to
Bill Bowden

No, you don't need the industrial base! Most of the money is made from ideas and trading. Producing is a necessary evil which you should outsource ASAP.

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Reply to
Nico Coesel

..

All things stock market are not a reliable indicator of anything anymore, it is all smoke, mirrors and hot air, and has been this way for about the past 30 years. You need to pay more attention to tangible developments like the bottom being blown out of the construction industry for the past 5 years with a steady decline each year. For something like that to happen in the US of all places is a sign of the end...

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

A large minority of the nation understands it. A large majority of the Democrat establishment doesn't care. They don't care about poor people.

The problem is Kling's message--he dares tell a big-government Democrat t'was government what screwed this whole thing up to start with, and that the last thing we need is more of the same.

I listened to the testimony. Such idiots as the Chairman...and they would rule us.

James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Right. We can all sell each other marbles (made in China) and quickly get rich on the trade.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

8...
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Not all smoke and mirrors, the market still tells the true story since it represents the wisdom of millions of investors. Who are we to say they are wrong?

But the construction industry does have problems. Looks like home construction is down 75% over 5 years while the S&P breaks even. I didn't think it was that bad if I read it right. Here's a chart of S&P verses Dow Jones home construction.

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-Bill

Reply to
Bill Bowden

Apple for example is doing just that. They dream up a new marble, have it made in China and make loads of profit.

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Reply to
Nico Coesel

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