Leftist weenies don't seem to understand that socialist countries are essentially run by dictators no matter the guise.
...Jim Thompson
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Jim Thomps>The Democrats would allow arbitrary infringement of our rights.
OMFG. Thompson is equating Left wingers with abuse of civil liberties. ...well, if a bunch of NeoCons controlling the data streams LIE about the necessity AND KEEP REPEATING THE LIE.
Excepting a closed mind, there is nothing prohibiting a socialist economy and a representative government. When the "means of production" are few, it is probably the best approach, and it can transition to a growing free-trade economy.
Acording to the DOD and Duck!&W administration, we have no POWs. If we did, we would be giving them the same rights as other POWs we have held in the past.
It is a crime under SOX for a corporation or an officer of a corporation to knowingly make a false statement of any type for the purpose of improving the corporation's stock market performance.
"Due process" was a poor choice of words on my part; just "processing" would have been better. Regardless of who the captive is or where/when/how they were captured, everyone has a right to be charged with their (purported) crimes, sentenced, and to have that sentence executed in a timely manner. There's no good reason any of that should take more than a month or two.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree there.
How other people treat our captured troops should have little or no bearing on how we treat theirs: We gain nothing by treating their captured troops poorly, and we certainly stand to gain a lot of respect from the rest of the world.
I really don't think treating captives badly discourages terrorists, though, any more than having a death penalty discourages murderers. (Not that I'm suggesting the death penalty is wrong, just that I don't think it really influences peoples' behavior much at all.)
Sure, because in the wars of that time, there was a clear distinction between uniformed soldiers (the vast majority of military personnel) and secret operatives (non-uniformed soldiers, some tiny fraction of personnel). In modern wars where the vast majority of military personnel aren't (necessarily) uniformed, the distinction is no longer relevant; a more practical distinction is whether or not the "enemy combatants" were caught on a declared battlefield or occupied territory.
I'm not as well-versed in this as you appear to me; I'll try to read up on it further -- thanks for the pointer.
Obama is the pluperfect leftist weenie naysayer. He's against everything. The net economic result is going to be far worse than during the Carter era. And who knows what degradation of our national security will result? Fortunately he'll be a one-termer and there will be a full-turnover of both houses of Congress as well. Maybe it's a good thing overall ;-)
...Jim Thompson
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That's a useful idea for that aspect of the thing: payroll, worker's comp, state and federal withholding, unemployment. A service would cut down on my time and expertise needed to handle those, though the service would still need time card data once a week, etc.
It doesn't avoid the expense, since then the service too needs to be paid, so I'd have to float that.
It's too bad the regulations are so complex that ordinary guys can't comply--you have to hire an army (or mercenaries).
It's also just a fraction the the total overhead imposed: there are city inspectors from at least two agencies, OSHA, the AQMD (air- pollution people), state requirements, ... just to get started.
Oh, and there's a minimum corporate tax, payable 2 years in advance-- if you die, they want to make sure they have their money. More if you make a profit, of course.
The work is no problem. Over the past several years I've developed a number of products, all oriented toward keeping the planet nicer by saving energy and resources.
"High-value," though, is a relative proposition. To me, these things are of high value, but only if they're accessible to many people. I want to make things that are good, and sell them for less. For as little as possible, actually. $3-to-$10, for some items.
The barriers to entry are substantial. Mine is the ideal situation for getting things made in China--just send the design files via e- mail, get product in the mail. But I don't want to do that.
I could hand some of them off to established companies, who in turn will likely just do the China thing. Or move someplace with less overhead and try myself. Or just smile, shelve them, and have more fun inventing new ones.
"Joel Koltner" wrote in news:O9T8k.212729$ snipped-for-privacy@en-nntp-02.dc.easynews.com:
Uh,this is WAR,not some civilian crimes. Detainees typically get interned until the war is over.
you forget that we are trying to get Military Intelligence from them.
well,stay ignorant,then.
"POORLY" ? are you joking? Have you NO idea of how well the Guantanamo detainees are treated? Are you THAT ignorant of how THEY trteat out people? beheadings,beatings,REAL torture....
Oh,like that is so important. Much of the "world" is run by non-democratic oppressive regimes.
there's that lack of knowledge of how WELL we do treat out captives. Also,do you really hoinestly think Al-Qaida or Iran cares about how their agents are treated? They WANT them to be thought of as martyrs. They DONT want them detained where they could divulge information,or out of their reach.
It DAMN well IS relevant.
"occupied territory"? another excuse for the terrorists.
that's debatable,considering latest reports on Obama. Obama has been hiding a lot of his history,dodging debates and issues.
once again that lack of real knowledge is crippling you.
His own words;Kill BMD,cut or stretch out military procurement,kill some weapons systems entirely.
Barack Hussein Obama would rather a US city get hit by a nuclear ballistic missile than have any defense against one. He still believes in MAD,when that does NOT hold true with today's religious fanatics and terrorist sponsoring States.
Obama is rated the TOP-most Leftist of our Senators. The person he himself claims was the most influential in his life was a Communist,a real Party member.His long close association with the unrepentant Weather Underground terrorist is being minimized (lied about,actually)to hide the truth about Obama.
Yep. They should have simply been sent to Yuma Territorial Prison like the Japanese, Germans and Italians were.
And it's a lot hotter than Gitmo ;-)
[snip]
Had the leftist weenies been a significant political power in WWII we wouldn't have even had the Nuremberg Trials.
Well it _would_ rid us of New York and Boston ;-)
...Jim Thompson
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Well, most would argue that the Iraq *War* effectively is over; it's just an occupation these days. Bush's triumphant "Mission Accomplished!" banner came about back in the middle of 2003, after all.
I think that the administration has admitted that very few of the folks who remain at Gitmo have much worthwhile information, but in general I'll concede that there do have to be (unusual) exceptions to the rules based on the exact circumstance's of an enemy's capture/knowledge/leadership position/etc.
I didn't say that, I was refuting your implication that perhaps we should beat the crap out of a few detainees and put it up on You Tube based on the premise that it'll discourage further terrorist acts.
I agree that -- barring a couple of incidents perpetuated by low-level morons that most high-level commanders don't approve of -- in general staying at Gitmo doesn't appear to be particularly bad in terms of being fed, clothed, allowed to read/interact with others, etc. The loss of one's freedom is still a Big Deal, mind you, but I would never began to compare Gitmo to, say, Auschwitz.
It is, especially as the huge economic advantage the U.S. once had in the world dwindles and we become more like just another European nation.
Yes, and unfortunately there aren't enough people who are willing to forcibly try to change that.
Not necessarily, but most of them still have family, wives, children, etc. who
*do* very much care about them. At the end of the day, they're still human, and just like the Germans in World War II, the VAST majority of them are not inherently evil people. Have you ever thought about all the people you know or have worked with and considered which of them, if simply born into another culture, would have become terrorists? Or "gone along" with an evil regime due to fear or a lack of willpower? (Franz Stangl, commandant of Sobibor, is a good example of this... when he wasn't overseeing the killing of Jews, he reportedly was a very kind, thoughtful husband.)
Well, I guess we'll find out for certain come November -- although I admire McCain, I just don't see him as our next president. Do you?
Until he gets to specifics you can't argue the value of such cuts, can you? Surely you wouldn't suggest that *all* military spending is necessary? *All* weapon systems make sense to continue development on, etc?
I agree with you there -- MAD no longer has much value as a military strategy.
Maybe because he figured that person taught him everything *not* to do?
:-) Just kidding, I'm sure that's not what he meant.
Would it forbid them from paying someone else to do that for them, through corporate donations (made with tacit agreements about the basic subject matter) to a corporate shill (woops, I meant 'shell')?
In other words, do you think SOX can they pierce through these kinds of arrangements in order to 'see' the underlying intent to simply circumvent a law that would have otherwise applied?
This is incorrect. You talk of the "rights" of these prisoners. "Rights" for people occur when they are in a State of Society with each other (at peace, basically), but this is decidely not the case. Violent aggression of one nation towards another, or a people against other people is a State of Nature between them, not a State of Society. There is no such thing as "rights" for the aggressor under these conditions, as the aggressor threatens the _survival_ of the aggressed.
As a matter of survival, the aggressed can take _any_ action action against the aggressor within their power to ensure their survival. They can take this action for as long as the State of Nature exists. For example, as long as war between the parties exists, or more generally, for as long as the attack lasts. Since Al-Qaeda has not denounced their attack, surrendered, or even so much as said they will permanently end hostilities, a State of Nature between Al-Qaeda and the USA still exists. This means any combatant associated with Al- Qaeda (or any hostile group, for that matter), may be detained for as long as the State of Nature exists /with no recourse/, and particularly with no "rights." This is for the rather obvious reason that if released, they would/could simply re-enlist and again threaten the survival of the aggressed. So detainment without "process" is an obvious outcome of the protracted hostilities.
During hostilities, there is no "crime" to charge them with, although after hostilities end, war crime charges could apply in certain circumstances, although I rather dislike the term "war crime."
To say "State of Nature" is to charge the aggressor as a force of nature. It is effectively the same as being attacked by a bear -- to have one's survival threatened by the bear. One can kill the bear, as a force of nature threatening survival. A like situation exists for human-to-human states of nature. These human-to-human killings are only called "killing," and not murder, because the killing was a matter of survival (of self-preservation, of self-defense). The aggressor human is only regarded as a force of nature threatening the survival of the aggressed human, not as a human with "rights." As a force of nature, the aggressor human has "rights" equal to those of an earthquake, a tornado, a bear, a lion, a "whatever," which is to say _no rights_. (Naturally, society will most often post-judge killings to see if it really was simple self-preservation.)
States of war between groups can be protracted. If an individual takes part in these hostilities, then they _take on the temporal frame of the hostilities_ for themselves. If captured, they can be imprisoned with no recourse for the duration. Until some end to hostilities is determined in some way, the prisoners understandably have no recourse.
But you would be wrong. Who will surrender or announce and end of hostilities on behalf these prisoners? These prisoners associated to a "shadow" aggressor. They can't play some cheap legal trick and say "oh, just kidding, let me go."
Apparently there is not a good body of law accorded to the case of "shadow" aggressors -- those who claim to have an ideological war to fight rather than a political/nationalistic war. They don't, and shouldn't, get a "get out of jail free card" just cuz their argument is ideological, or whatever.
This particular item is not to be blamed on the Bush Administration. THe associates of Al-Qaeda made their own bed here. If Al-Qaeda continues on its course -- never ends hostile actions/intent -- the the captured associates can rot in jail for all that time.
I doubt they have it so bad, as it would commonly would go.
The nature of the battle was changed on the terrorists' terms, not the US. The basic fact is they threaten the survival of the aggressed in unconventional ways. They don't get a free pass because the manner of warring is unconventional. That would be a cheap legal trick.
Not to worry. Just be a Democrat... bend over, you'll enjoy it... after a while ;-)
...Jim Thompson
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Well, I believe in certain "human rights," even for people who, yes, are out to kill you. After all, the U.S. constitution claims our basic rights come from our "creator," not from man, right?
I'm not suggesting the folks in Gitmo should have all the same rights a regular U.S. citizen would, of course.
So why not just nuke Iraq and get it over with? Far cheaper than this seemingly-endless war we're fighting over there.
Al-Qaeda is a rather loosely organized entity that's specifically modeled that way so that it is pretty much impossible for them to ever be "cleanly" defeated. This is just like, say, Napster vs. Gnutella compared to WW II vs. the 2nd Iraqi war here: The new guys (Gnutella, Al-Qaeda) learned from the old guys that, if you distribute yourself widely enough, it's impossible to ever be shut down.
I'm all for the immediate death penalty of any enemy combatant who's found to have re-enlisted.
I have to get going so I don't have time to properly respond to the rest of your comments, but I do appreciate your taking the time to write them, even though I don't agree with all of them.
Huh?! Under that logic, I guess there really is no such thing as "inalienable rights". (God given or otherwise.)
I also disagree with the assertion that a prisoner, properly restrained and removed from hostilities, maintains any legitimate threat to the survival of those holding him prisoner. And by your logic, if there is no threat, then the prisoner actually is in a "State of Society" - one he may diagree with, but there nonetheless.
I would also argue that perhaps it is natural for societies to be agressive towards one another. (Which of course, totally guts your statements). History has certainly shown that to be the case.
But aside from all of that, what is the real harm of allocating these prisoners certain rights? Are we not a bigger country than that? We would survive just fine, even if we let them all go. No trial, no further detention or punishment, just let 'em all go.
For that matter, we would survive just fine (as a society) if we shot each one of them dead where they stood - no trial. We obliterated many thousands more of innocent lives when we dropped the atomic bombs on civilians and we're still here....(as a "society") So if we snuffed out a few hundred (presumably) bad guys, what's the difference??
I guess I don't understand your nuance argument about "society" and "nature". Sorry.
"Joel Koltner" wrote in news:r9V8k.203045$ snipped-for-privacy@en-nntp-07.dc.easynews.com:
enthusiasm over the unexpected extremely rapid defeat of Saddam's armed forces.
WHERE did I ever say or "imply" ANYTHING of that sort? I suspect that is solely YOUR construction.
I remind you that this thread is about holding prisoners,not about torture or interrogation techniques. Let's not diverge from that.
Hardly.
not even peaceably change it,through political,economical and other non- military means.
And our captives HAVE been humanely treated. We really could not treat them any better.We also have released far more detainees than we have detained currently.(reading Townhall.com and National Review Online reallly gets you some good info on these things;stuff you will NEVER hear from mainstream media.Not rantings and ravings,either.)
OTOH,our own captured UNIFORMED soldiers have been truly tortured,beaten,beheaded.
I have a really difficult time imagining Obama as President. It would be FAR worse than when JFK was measured up by Khruschchev,and just a few months later,the Berlin Wall went up and after than,ballistic missiles in Cuba and the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviets thought JFK was weak and tested him. Carter allowed IRAN to be taken by religious fanatics,and the US Embassy hostages held for 444 days. (and Carter was formerly US military!!)
OBAMA -will- back down,surrender. Look at all the gaffes and flip-flops he's been making lately. No wonder Al-Qaida,Iran and other US enemies all say they like Obama. THEY know he's a pushover.
Current weapons are getting OLD,wearing out. Production lines are long closed down,new systems are being developed and bought,their purchase carefully planned and budgeted. We NEED them. If something happens,our troops wil not have the weapons they need to fight.That is what happened on Clinton's watch,and after Jimmy Carter. Russia is resurgent,not in any good way,and China is building a LOT of weapons.Since nobody is credibly threatening either of them,there's SOME reason for their arms buildups.
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