Thank u Isaac.Now u also hav understood that there is no point in discussing these topics anymore bcoz neither of the generations is having mutual respects for each other.So burry this topic here itself. Thank u once again.
Special Thanks to Ralf Hildebrandt who ignored the formalities and helped with his valuable suggestion.Thank u Ralf.
I do _not_ ignore the formalities! Reading this group is really hard.
1) high traffic It seems to be uninteresting? Ignore thread. 2) seldom minimal examples No time for such a bunch of code. 3) gimme code fast!!!! Should I do your homework? 4) plz can u adv? What? I am not a native English speaker. (Look at the email addresses. I am not the only one.) Although I can understand this, it makes "eye cancer". 5) I have that problem ... Did you try to solve it? What are your ideas? ...O.k. the OP's posting was to that hard to read, but it may have been the the last straw that breaks the camel's back. Netcopping is not nice, but sometimes necessary. Here in this particular case it was an additional hint. So it may be a good idea to form a clear and easily readable question and provide as much as information as required (but not more) to get an answer. This is not a problem of the "generation gap". (I am 27.) And at last: There are some real experts here in the group that give often very useful hints (regulars). I would recommend to think about, what they write, because otherwise you may hit soon the bottom of a killfile or the experts will leave.
I have seen newsgroups with much more strict formalities, that are much more readable. Here is the "wild west".
Ralf
When you use things like "bcoz" and "u" it makes you look like a damn fool idiot.
It's OK to use that stuff when you're text messaging on a cell phone since people understand that it is hard to type and abbreviations make it easier. And it's OK to do it in instant messaging or chat rooms where other people are doing too and it is the accepted way of doing things.
But when you are in a newsgroup where everyone else speaks proper english, even people who don't speak english as their native language, it's wrong. It makes you look like your IQ is less than your age. And continuing to argue that it is OK when you are told otherwise makes it look like your IQ is less than your shoe size.
Get over it and type proper words if you want anyone to take you seriously and answer your questions. Otherwise we are all just going to continue to laugh at you.
John-
Well I can feel the heat building... but I would venture to say that several of the engineering Yahoo Groups, plus my own engineers, have taught me there really is an emerging consistency and 'normalness' to the shorthand. If key tech words, names, and acronyms are misspelled, then yes that's bad and not excusable.
-Jeff
Jeff, the "older generation", especially when brought up with a Europen and thus more rigorous education, with Latin and a couple of foreign languages thrown in, finds this kind of misspelling "cancer on the eye", as somebody else mentioned. Personally, I even cringe at "lite" and "thru". So, as long as you guys are interested in learning from us older folks, let's stay with "King's English", or the American derivative. Once we are 6-feet below, you can bastardize the spelling and the language to your heart's content. A few hundred years of literature be damned...
Peter Alfke
I would like to add to my previous response that purposely butchering the english language with misspellings like "bcoz," in a forum where proper english is the accepted norm, does not command any respect. Period. Generations have nothing to do with it.
I have no problem with people who don't speak english as their native language trying to post in english and doing a bad job of it. After all, I don't speak any other language well enough to even attempt to type out a message such as this in anything but english.
I have no problem with the occasional accidental typo. I don't even get worked up about common errors like people who don't understand when to use "then" vs. "than." I usually consider it bad form to correct these sort of things unless you are actually having a discussion about grammar or language or spelling.
But nobody, not even non-english speakers, has ever misspelled "because" as "bcoz" unintentionally. And intentional misspelling like this commands no respect.
Keep it in your cell phone text messages where there is a good reason for abbreviations.
Isaac, That is excellent advice. It is sad to see people communicating in this sort of abbreviated phonetic street English when they could be developing their basic communication skills, as you suggest. Colonial powers introduced Pidgin English in an attempt to restrict the concepts that could be communicated by the natives. It is tragic to see a version of it so readily adopted by a whole sub-culture.
As a person from a 'different generation' I don't agree with you that we are 'unable to comprehend' the texting garbage now used in some postings. I find that it is possible to work my way through this stuff, and that with some effort I can generally work out what the writer is trying to say. The problem is that it is a tedious process, and I am tempted not to bother.
This abbreviated English used by these posters does have some benefits to them. It can disguise the fact that they can't spell, it shows that they are 'cool' and it is easier to type, if they are using a cell-phone.
When a person posts in this form they are communicating in the way which they apparently find most convenient personally. Unfortunately it appears that they simply can not be bothered communicating in the way which best suits their audience; the people whose help they are seeking. The naive arrogance behind this is a matter of continuous wonderment to me.
Regards, John
Everything engineers do is language based. Whether it is the use of english (or other popularly used formal and well documented language) for technical communication, or the use of a formal language for description / implementation of a design. Both of these are rules based systems. If one has had a lifetime (or even just a few years) of experience with the first and has been incapable of mastering (or unwilling to master) it, I am unlikely to believe that he will be capable or willing to do the same with the later.
The minimal effort necessary to write and speak with precise language that the original poster saved was far less than the effort required by the average reader to understand the his post. Multiply that by the dozens or even hundreds of people that read that post, and it is simply not economically efficient to use the informal language. When I play the role of employer I get to make the economic argument, as I am paying both the writer and the reader(s). When this is not the case, and I am only responsible for one party, this becomes a simple issue of respect; an issue of respect for my and / or another's time.
Respect... the momentum of my diatribe is that of freight train barreling out of control...
Simple good manners are the way that we show respect to others. Manners, like the use of precise language, should not be turned on and off at will. I simply don't buy the argument that one is capable of doing this for two reasons. The first is that one often does not know until after the fact if the use of the informal language or the ignoriance of good manners will be a source of offense. The second is that the "unimportant" situations provide practice so that the important situations go appropriately.
If one is a current student that wants to be employable when she graduates, I offer two pieces of advice. The first is to take as many writing intensive classes in school as time allows. The second, buy a copy of Emily Post's "Etiquette", and read the sections that apply to daily life. Refer back this book when new life circumstances arise and more of this system needs to be understood. Etiquette, like language, is simply another formal system that needs to be learned and practiced to be mastered.
I really don't care how smart a person is, if he can not play nice with others (i.e. show respect for) there simply is not room on my team for such an individual. We find plenty of time for fun and informality at this office. Much of the work we do use intensely creative. BUT, I do not believe one can think outside of the system, without understanding and respecting the system.
For the record I am a 32 years old. Good language and good manners are ageless.
Regards, Erik.
-- Erik Widding President Birger Engineering, Inc. (mail) 100 Boylston St #1070; Boston, MA 02116 (voice) 617.695.9233 (fax) 617.695.9234 (web) http://www.birger.com
I have absolutely *no* interest in entangling myself in this thread, except to commend the two paragraphs above to anyone, young or old, who wants to make a serious go of it in engineering.
Bob Perlman Cambrian Design Works
As Texas governor Miriam Amanda "Ma" Ferguson is reported to have said, "If the King's English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for us."
The cultural and class bigotry in this tread is appalling. If some of the OLD TIMERS in this group wish to be mentors, they first need to learn to be a bit more flexible, and not riddicule and insult others at the drop of a hat.
This is not a native US born and educated form. It has many posters struggling to communicate in a non-native foriegn language based on language skills learned in chat rooms, IRC's, and a number of other forums.
This list also includes posters like myself that are dyslexic, and find it extremely difficult to proof our own writings because misspellings, transpositions, missing/wrong characters and words are all "corrected" incorrectly by our brains as we reread our own work.
Spelling and grammar flame wars like this thread are nothing short of bigotry.
That is complete nonsense.
The OP comes from a country in which English is widely used claiming more good speakers than the country that gave it to them. Nobody is offended by the minor grammatical and typos error some of us make more often than others. People don't hear accents here. I also get confused between UK and US English, and often use google for spell checking.
What this thread is about is very simple, "deliberate" unnecessary destruction of a language that can only confuse people who trully are having problems learning the language. If all they see is the terse cell phone encodings, that is hardly going to help them with their own English, they might even come to think that i,u,ur are acceptable.
If I were to visit any non English speaking country and talk or write in jibberesh as if I should be understood when I could as easily speak or write better, I wouldn't expect a great reception. I am also quite used to having my own written English corrected by non native speakers.
But we are just repeating ourselves.
John Jakson
It's a VERY common form of TECH SPEAK used on every BBS, Chat, and IRC system.
It doesn't matter where the poster was from, the nature and intent of the post would make any non-english poster firmly feel unwelcome.
Maybe we need to be politically correct in this global formun, at take the top 52 languages and use one a week, or month, or year.
John
Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder. It's insulting to see language - any language - needlessly butchered. As many others on this forum, I have sincere respect for those who don't know the nuances of English but try to communicate in this second (or third or forth) langauge. There is no need for mentors to put up with disrespect. Disrespect is what it is, plain and simple. Bcoz u cant tolr8 r annoyance with eye cancer doesn't mean we need to be tolerant of purposful butchering. If the post is MADE from a cell phone, I'd personally be willing to give some leeway.
Given the strong support from so many who don't regularly contribute to threads of a more personal nature, the shorthand just isn't welcome. I've seen now 2 posts in mild support of gibberish, the majority against.
If we had a hint that the poster wasn't an english speaker, the tolerance would be greater; the posts read as if the individual was a native english speaker. If English is not their first language and chat is the second language, I applaud the original poster for being able to otherwise communicate rather well; I seriously doubt this is the case.
Misspellings and transpositions are easy to deal with especially for anyone who has dealt with a tremendous amount of chat and email over the development of the internet. The issue is a lack of desire to put any respect into the communication.
The issue isn't spelling (there were no unintentional spelling mistakes). The issue isn't grammar (the "cool" chat appreviations were in well constructed sentences). The issue is about communication and any level of respect for the communication medium - the English langauge. Dyslexics and foreign language posters still have respect for language.
SO, are you trying to agitate again this late in the thread? Are you trying to be the devils' advocate to help out the mentors on this board or are you becoming an ass again? I do love to start my morning being pissed; if that's your goal, you succeed rather well.
Just being a devils advocate here, partly because I have a terrible time with my dyslexia when I'm tired or stressed and frequently get flamed for it, and just so you can be a bigot again.
Tech speak, is part of this segment of the electronic world ... as I say ... get used to it. Feel free not to answer posters in tech speak ... they will appreciate the increased civility with the lack of your bitching.
Bitching about tech speak I find pretty lame. There are enough other forms of tech speak frequently used by posters in CAF. ROTF, IANAL, LOL, :), :^) .... how many people wish to have a few ass's bitching everytime they use part of this technical chat room language style?
Not many I suspect ....
Congrats on being the first to push me into figuring out how to work the kill file. If all you do is rant, you have no place in my readings. I have not seen you ask for help on this forum. I have not seen you provide answers on this forum. You may have done both but my recollection is only ranting. If you choose to still think of me as a bigot because I think you and deliberately bad english have no place on this forum, feel free.
- John Handwork fed up with John Bass
There are some people doing appalling things in this thread, but I don't think we would be likely to agree on who is doing them.
...
Making mistakes is one part. A totally different part is using "a different language".
100 years ago it was a sign of high education to speak French during the meal. At this time it was also common to discuss scientific topics in German. Today it is "cool" to use these abbreviations. What comes next? L33t?And - IMHO - what you call "tech speak" is chatting about some popular technical topics with a friend living next door. It is not a (scientific) discussion.
English as the world's communication language is a gift, because it is not a too hard and for a lot of people a quite easy language. Don't make it difficult.
Again: Mistakes happen. I can imagine, that this is especially hard for you, but everybody will notice, that mistakes are "random" (in contrast to the discussed abbreviations) and if you mention your dyslexia most people will understand that. (If not call them idiots and ignore them.)
Ralf
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