Well said. See, I'm slipping on the liberal slide, I'm falling toward the darkside, help me , help me! I have often said, if insurance had not been invented our healthcare costs would be much lower. On the other hand there would be much less money in the system and we wouldn't have all the life saving equipment we have. Mikek
How is this different from being insured for the past 40 years? I just want insurance and insurance companies don't want to issue it. It's like the casinos taking away the slot machine just before it pays off after you have spent all your quarters.
Because it is time for me to collect on the insurance, you call it wanting someone to "give" me a handout. No, I just want back in the casino with all the other player.
Great analogy... now that the machine is ready to pay off they kick me out of the casino.
-- Rick
They also don't include all the care for that price... Hell, it doesn't even include a night's stay.
"Any overnight stay at our facility can be arranged on a case-by-case basis for an additional charge. Lodging and travel expenses are not included in the price of the procedures."
Both of your numbers are bs. One you admittedly made up and the other is the "advertised" price for the basic procedure which doesn't cover many things required.
So you don't believe in paying taxes at all? Or just the part *you* believe is wasted? I guess you like the parts that pay for stuff *you* value.
I still don't believe the ACA exchange premiums are that much higher than the rest of the market. But you have no idea what it took for me to start my own business.
Lies based on other lies! (who does that sound like?)
And yet all you do is complain about what others have done to fix the system without any constructive criticism that could possibly work.
And that is what the ACA will lead to. As medical costs continue to rise pushing up insurance rates and the subsidies end, people won't be able to afford insurance. Currently for the majority of citizens who have insurance through work, the bulk of the premium is paid for by the employer. Employers have been pushing the insurance rises on to the employees for some time now. As they continues to grow it will become apparent to the masses just what medical care costs. Only when it affect the masses will changes happen.
Your bs has reached diarrhea status.
Costs will only be controlled when the users are impacted and made decisions based on the true costs.
-- Rick
Your choice of metaphor is very telling. You clearly think something is owed to you, where in fact it is not.
?-)
Yes, that is where we differ. I believe that everyone is entitled to decent medical care regardless of their financial situation just as they have a right to justice and liberty. What they get in all three regards varies greatly from the ideal.
-- Rick
I'm not sure what Obamacare did to increase health insurance coverage. As far as I know, everyone was insured before the ACA since anyone can go to an ER room and be treated as they can now. I know someone who checked into an ER room, was diagonosed with cancer and spent 6 weeks in the hospital at a cost of 300K. They had no insurance and the final cost after negotiations was a $25 co-pay. Not sure about the details, but it seems that everyone was covered by health insurance before the ACA and not much has changed now except the cost for new stuff that some don't want. I think the hospitals and insurance companies are making the same or more now and the doctors are getting less. Some doctors are leaving the profession due to reduced wages and medicare payments.
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This is a commonly spread myth. Yes, they will see you in an ER, but if you aren't having an emergency they won't treat you, period. You can't get treated for a cold and you *certainly* won't get a hip replaced or anything else that isn't life threatening.
But maybe that's what you call medical care, just treating the life threatening situations?
Blood from a turnip I suppose. But I can assure you that if that person has any means of support, the hospital would take them to court and take it.
So are you paying for insurance? If so, why not just drop it and go on the "no frills" package?
Doctors leaving the profession... lol. Yes, they are all moving to Nigeria to open practices.
A few years ago the doctors in Maryland made a stink about the cost of malpractice insurance being too high, they wanted a cap on payouts. They threatened to leave the state. I felt they should go if they weren't happy, but the state gave them their cap.
Who pays for that?
-- Rick
I pay for medicare (part b), but I could stop paying and just use the VA health care system and pay nothing for health care insurance. But I like the idea of everyone paying their fair share, so I keep paying for medicare and have never used it.
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And that actually makes sense to you? You already earned the care you are eligible for from the VA. You aren't paying "your fair share". You are paying for something you don't need to and don't use. But if it makes you feel better then please go ahead. :)
Actually, if you wanted to pay your truly fair share you would not use any insurance and just pay your own medical bills. That is the real sense of "your fair share".
-- Rick
Actually, no. Your "fair share" is being subsidized by others, either way.
That's exactly what he said, dummy!
Bullshit. If he were to pay his "fair share" he could pay for insurance himself or take the gamble you describe. Though because of leftists like you, he isn't able to buy insurance that meets his needs so is forced to subsidize others or be subsidized by others.
You bought insurance and they insured you. They already did what they supposed to do.
If you buy gas from a station for forty years, does that mean they owe you free gas, or the grocery store owes you free groceries?
No, what you want is a free operation. Not insurance.
The casino is perfectly within its rights to stop taking bets any time it wants.
They're in the bet-taking business though, so they don't. If you're skewing the odds, OTOH, they'll most definitely throw you out.
But you're not playing for the same odds as the other players. You want a 100% guarantee of a large payout, in exchange for a small premium.
That's the same as wanting a handout.
Cheers, James Arthur
Liberalism is so often a luxury of the heart over reality. If emotion solved everything we wouldn't need math.
I'm not so sure about that. No one buys computer, cellphone, or car-purchase insurance[*], yet those things continue to get better and better even now.
[*] Just think about that--instead of buying a car, Obamacare would have us believe that we should all have to buy car-purchase insurance (at the same rates) so we all could afford cars, then pay a bureaucracy and middlemen to tell us when, where, and what. They think that's somehow cheaper.It's so absurd.
Cheers, James Arthur
I gave a reference for what is by far the bulk of the cost. You could take steps to mitigate the peripheral costs too if you wanted, but you haven't mentioned cost at all. For someone who wants affordable care, that's remarkable.
Instead you seem completely unconcerned about cost, convinced taxpayers owe you service at an over-priced facility (and free perhaps groceries, because after all you've been buying groceries for a long time too).
Engineers estimate. What's your estimate? Have you priced anything, or really not, because it won't be your money anyhow?
This illustrates the whole third-party payer problem -- people don't shop, and aren't as careful when it's not their money.
That's just silly. Government is necessary and there are certain things it should do, and many things it shouldn't.
Since they're so much smarter, such better shoppers and innovators, why don't you just have the government take everything and let Congress dole it out?(*)
That would be a disaster, of course, like Obamacare.
(*) Actually, under Obamacare, they do, for another 17% of the economy.
What you needed to start your business doesn't matter.
If you take thousands of dollars a year from someone who's on the edge of financial survival, you've taken away *all* that person's financial security and made it impossible for them to better themselves, go to school, weather a layoff, or start a business.
You've taken their security and their hope for a better future, and made other allocations for them instead.
That sounds like Obamacare itself, a tissue of falsities which would never have passed but for misrepresentations and outright lies.
First, I'm not obliged in any way to fix the stupidity you've tried to foist on me. I'm not obliged to cooperate, support it, or help you in any way. Heavens, you haven't even read it.
Second, it's not my fault if you don't understand I've just laid the solution for nearly all of this before you, plain as day.
Third, you haven't given any indication that you've tried to minimize (or even looked into) the costs. Your chief concern so far is not affordable care for society, but getting others to pay for yours. I'd think you'd feel a special responsibility to make sure your crap worked before forcing it on people, but your lot hasn't read or understood their own proposal *still*.
No, the ACA leads to legions of Ricks, en masse expecting stuff for free from everyone else, and fuzzy logic that they're somehow entitled.
I agree.
Your own example shows that Obamacare users *aren't* impacted and
*don't care* about impacting others.By your own criterion, the 'Affordable' Care Act doesn't control costs, which was 90% of the problem to start with. Q.E.D.
That's the problem (again) with third-party payer systems: consumers can't shop when you hide their cost of care, which Obamacare takes from ~50% in the U.S., and makes universal.
Cheers, James Arthur
If the VA knows you have Medicare, they will bill them for part of your care. They ask me every time I have an appointment with any VA doctor.
-- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
You do understand that insurance is about pooling the costs, right? Of course there is cost associated with managing an insurance company. But in terms of the dollars spent on healthcare the only difference is that while people can afford to pay for insurance, they often can't pay the huge healthcare bills. Even if you lop off the 20%, 30% or even 40% overhead of insurance, medical costs are sill huge. Having a heart attack or worse, cancer without insurance can wipe out a lifesavings leaving people literally homeless.
I'm not sure insurance has made significantly larger funding available for advances. Obviously reducing the money paid into medical care will result in less money spent on resources and ultimately research. I'm not sure that will significantly reduce the quality of care in the US. I think much of our system is profit oriented rather than care oriented. A lot of medical research is done outside the US and much research in the US is done by Government and schools. So it won't be a 1 for 1 loss of care.
-- Rick
Where have you been? This post is three weeks old?
I'm not asking the goverment to pay me anything. I'm going to have insurance and continue to pay my own way.
I don't have insurance yet. I'll start shopping in earnest when I do. My primary goal no matter who is paying for it is the outcome. I will be going to one of the doctors who is the best at the procedure I need. Your reference for a cut rate clinic may not even do the procedure I need.
As long as you continue with your delusions we can't have a discussion.
You brought it up, not me...
Oh, you mean make them pay for their own healthcare... I thought you were for that? Do you believe auto insurance should be mandatory?
Good, then this discussion can end. Obviously you have no stake in the matter and no interest.
Yes, I'm not a very bright guy I guess...
You keep talking about "others" paying for my care. No, I am buying my own insurance so I can afford to pay for it. Why do you buy insurance?
When you say Obamacare users, you actually mean insurance users, right? That includes you for a great many years, no?
You live in a very twisted world. You feel insurance is good, but Obamacare insurance is bad. More people have insurance now and that is somehow bad.
-- Rick
I will continue to buy gas and I will continue to buy insurance. Is that ok with you?
How do I get a free operation? Even with insurance it will cost me some $10,000.
And that is exactly what they do if you start to win. Do you know how the casino can tell if you are cheating? You win.
By definition the odds have to skew sometimes. Check out probability theory, you may be surprised.
So buying insurance is a handout? You have insurance, right? You are taking a handout!
-- Rick
You've already gotten full value for all the years you paid in. They insured you, and you had insurance. No one owes you.
On the contrary, you're not going to pay your way. No one owes you anything, but you're going to get an expensive operation in exchange for a small premium.
Everyone else has to pay higher taxes, premiums, and fees to pay for that.
If you're smart you'll get the biggest, broadest policy Obamacare offers, get the operation, let everyone else pay as much as possible, then switch later to a cheaper policy.
Obamacare encourages stuff like that.
Cheers, James Arthur
Buying "insurance" for something that has already happened is asking for a handout, yes.
It's the same as applying for a life insurance policy on Abraham Lincoln. You might as well. You're expecting someone to accept your first premium, then pay you the full benefit.
Cheers, James Arthur
That is what insurance is about. Everyone shares the cost for the few who need services. Do you not understand the principle behind insurance? No wonder you get upset about it all.
Yes, and that is true for everyone who needs to use healthcare and is on the same plan... except for the taxes part.
Thanks for the idea! I appreciate you looking out for me.
As does every insurance plan. :)
-- Rick
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