What sucks about flux

Hi:

I have obtained a sample quantity of something closely resembling unobtainium.

It is lead-free solder with a melting point of 217C, cored with activated rosin flux. CASTIN alloy from Aim, with composition Sn96.5Ag2.5Cu0.5Sb0.5

Aim claims that the wetting action of SAC type alloys decreases with increasing Ag content, and that the 2.5% Ag gives a more optimum wetting than 3.0% Ag typical of SAC305 which is likely to be the industry standard lead-free.

They implicate Motorola in having a lot to do with the choice of SAC305, though the fact that CASTIN is patented probably doesn't help.

Also, the 0.5% antimony helps to keep grain size consistent over a range of cooling rates which is a large plus for an alloy to be used in hand soldering/rework. Slow cooling tends to cause large grain sizes, resulting in the very frosty appearance of lead-free solder joints.

If you have experimented with any SAC305 hand soldering, you will discover that it is possible for the alloy to harden to a shiny joint, but the cooling must occur at a very rapid rate, and having a lot of flux helps as well.

The CASTIN's antimony content seems to help make the frosty surface remain as finely grained as possible, and also if a cross section of the joint is examined under a microscope, the CASTIN is more homogeneous with respect to grain size, whereas non-Sb bearing SAC alloys are much more heterogeneous. Thus CASTIN could be expected to deliver more consistent joint strength in non-automated soldering methods.

In my initial experiments with the RA-cored CASTIN, I am greatly impressed by how well it wets and flows, as well as its tendency to give a more mildly frosty surface appearance than what often results with SAC305.

I think it is the RA flux though, not just the alloy composition that leads to the very good wetting action of RA-cored CASTIN. But perhaps the two factors together are as close to a optimum lead-free as is possible to achieve. It really is not much different from working with Sn60Pb40.

However, due to market forces, it appears likely that we will not see rosin cored lead-free wire solders available in the future. At least not from Aim, but they seem to think that this will be the case throughout the solder industry. They don't want such a large matrix of flux/alloy combinations, so they want to stock only no-clean and water-clean flux cored wire solders.

I think this sucks, partly because for all the non-automated soldering that goes on out there, rosin is something that people are familiar with. Even just the smell. No-clean smells like a burning chemical stink, whereas rosin is quite pleasant. (At least for those of us who don't suffer allergic reaction to rosin.)

But I am convinced that rosin is a better flux, compared at least to the no-cleans that I have had the opportunity to try. I like the RA CASTIN wire *much* better than my Kester no-clean SAC305 wire. When I add some rosin to a joint prior to soldering with SAC305, then it performs much better. But I don't want to have to dispense bonus flux to ever joint I perform. That's the point of flux core in the first place. The fact that no-clean wires tend not to have more than 2% flux, where RA may be up to 3%, may also be a factor.

Oh well.

It is actually possible to custom order CASTIN with RA flux, but one would have to order 24 lbs. Hmm, that makes me wonder: Is anyone interested in a group purchase of 0.031" RA cored CASTIN wire? I suppose if we could get it down to 1-2 rolls per person, it might not be a bad deal. Or maybe I should swing for 24 rolls and sell the surplus on Ebay.

I hope that there will ultimately wind up to be RA cored SAC305 wires available in the future, when the RoHS misfortune has fully taken hold. Perhaps the manufacturers will get enough complaints from folks who are just used to rosin and its pleasant smell to stock it despite their present judgements of the market.

Good day!

--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@bogus-remove-me.sbcglobal.net
SuSE 9.1 Linux 2.6.5
Reply to
Chris Carlen
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[snip]

Is Sn/Pb solder still available for purchase?

I have a fairly good-sized spool, but I guess I'd better salt away

15-20 years supply, for my G-jobs.

That will hold me to age 80-85 ;-)

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | |

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| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Reply to
Jim Thompson

You know of course that RoHS is so far only a Euro regulatory boondoggle, and hasn't yet been manifested here in any binding manner.

The electronics and electronics tools catalogs are still filled with lots of SnPb solders, so I think you can get what you want for some time. I would recommend Kester. I had some Radio Shack solder that went bad or maybe sucked all along. Some sections of the wire were almost entirely empty of flux. So I invested in 4 rolls of Kester 44 in

0.015", 0.025", and 0.031" Sn63Pb37 (eutectic is wonderful for PCB assembly since it flows and hardens almost instantly), and 0.050" Sn60Pb40 a while back for home use. Now I'm interested in Pb-free just for the sake of my baby.

But as an eccentric I also tend to like doing things differently, and so there is an allure of the "exoticness" of Pb-free solders. But that's just a personality thing. And being a chemist, we can have peculiar fascinations with the elements, that non-chemists tend to find incomprehensible. For myself, that elemental fascination has been with silver ever since I was a kid. So using silver bearing solder is a lot of fun!

Good day!

--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@bogus-remove-me.sbcglobal.net
SuSE 9.1 Linux 2.6.5
Reply to
Chris Carlen

Interesting. First of all, your alloy doesn't add up to 100%. Is it really Sn96.5 Ag3.0 Cu0.5?

There are also alloys such as Sn96Ag4 which are higher melting than SAC305.

I will have to call Kester Monday, since in their PDF catalogs, they don't indicate a 44 cored lead-free wire.

Thanks for the input.

Good day!

--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@bogus-remove-me.sbcglobal.net
SuSE 9.1 Linux 2.6.5
Reply to
Chris Carlen

It's interesting that they exempted the telecom industry, and that in Europe most of the telecoms are owned by the government.

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead compounds are present?

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Truly -- they should switch to Nickel Cadmium (duck and cover).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Does anyone have a particular preference on alloy for hand-soldering fairly fine-pitch (0.5mm) parts?

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

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"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
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Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

I will be once again looking at pastes for SMD stuff in the near future. I tried PbSn paste when I first learned to solder SMD, applying it with a syringe. It was very hard to get consistent quantities that way.

Then I switched to 0.015" Kester Sn63Pb37 with liquid RA flux pen. That works quite nice.

But I am not sure I want to continue with wire and SMD with Pb-free. Not sure why. Actually, I'll probably continue, but I would like to learn more about application methods for paste.

Anyway, it looks like SAC305 will ultimately be the standard for most everything.

Good day!

--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@bogus-remove-me.sbcglobal.net
SuSE 9.1 Linux 2.6.5
Reply to
Chris Carlen

In the high temperature Kestor Sn96.5 Ag2.5 Cu0.5 with #44 flux has been in use for decades and there had not been a major issue with workability once you get used to the higher temepratures. It wets better than any other high temeperature solder we tried. It is a bit brittle and with a couple of theremal cycles (0-180C) (thats right C) it will fatigue and fail on fine pitched solder joints. SOIC and dip joints are fine. It also does very well for 0-125C thermal cycles so for commercial temps it should be ideal.

Use small diameter wire with hand soldering (0.020"-0.030") and get off the joint quick.

Reply to
Mook Johnson

"John Larkin" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Key thing about RoHs, is that it is aimed at just one thing. Electronic rubbish that goes into the waste tip. The assumption at present, is that lead-acid batteries for example, already have a seperate 'bin' at the dump. Similarly, lead solders used in plumbing, end up going to the metal recycling yard, because the plumber can make money from the copper. They did a fairly simple analysis of what contained lead in a typical council dump, and most of it was the solder in cheap consumer electronics being thrown away. The 'idea' then makes sense. Whether it'll actually work, and the implications on reliability as people try to cut corners on th substitute materials, we will know in a few decades...

Best Wishes

Reply to
Roger Hamlett

That's an outfated view.

Euro regulation has actually put former State companies in to the *private sector*.

They of course are exempt. lol :-(

Graham

Reply to
Pooh Bear

The reason I ask is that I changed from 60/40 to 63/37 as a roll ran out and it has not gone nearly as smoothly as usual on the latest prototypes.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Except it doesn't make sense because of WEEE.

WEEE want to keep electronics out of the general trash. So we'll end up making lead free product ( or not ) so it *can* be put in the trash but WEEE says it mustn't be put in the trash anyway !

See the 'crossed out wheelie bin' logo.

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Talk about the left and right hand not knowing what they're doing.

Graham

Reply to
Pooh Bear

This page may be interesting reading for what we are doing in the down hole, high temeprature market.

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Reply to
Mook Johnson

Car batteries are not ending up in the waste generated by households. In fact there exists a well established and well functioning recycling industry for car batteries. In some countries you even have to pay a significant deposit when buying a new battery, which is returned once you return the old battery to the dealer for recycling. RoHS' target is the large fraction of consumer electronics, which ends up in the household garbage. You got a new cell phone, the old one is thrown into the trash can. Your CD-ROM fails, you get a new one and the old goes in the trash can. There are so many cheap, low cost, short life-time, everyday electronic gadgets, that most of it, just ends up in either the land fill or an incinerator like kitchen scrap. Previous attempts to educate people to return their used electronics to special collections sites have largely failed. Although lead free solder is certainly a manufacturing problem, I think RoHS is reasonable. Basically I don't think that RoHS is a bigger manufacturing problem then the introduction of say SMDs, BGAs, multilayer PCBs etc. It's annoying fo now, but we will get used to it ...

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Bahner

Wonder what long term exposure to antimony does to your brain ?:-)

Which, AIUI, goes out of production very soon.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Probably not much good.

Sn95Sb5 alloy is currently approved for potable water systems, so I would expect that means that despite the known toxicity of Sb, that likely leaching mechanisms within water systems do not yield a hazardous amount of Sb, in contrast to Pb.

The fact that it's only 5% Sb may help too.

So with the Aim CASTIN alloy, and its 0.5% Sb content, I find it hard to believe that this is anything to worry about.

Especially considering that the RoHS regulation is based upon the hypothetical scenario that someday Pb might leach out of a landfill and poison some water table. But has this ever been actually documented to occur?

I calculated that I'd have to eat about 20g of CASTIN solder, and have it dissolve completely to get aan acutely toxic dose of Sb. But of course, that amount of Sn and Ag would probably be approaching toxicity as well.

Good day!

--
_______________________________________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and "BOGUS" from email address to reply.
Reply to
Chris Carlen

Antimony is a fairly positive laxitive. Back in the middle ages, a solid lump of antimony was used as a reusable laxative tablet.

Ick.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Hello Chris,

Antimony:

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This whole ROHS is typical overblown knee jerk legislation, probably concocted by people who know little about the long term impact of their actions. Who knows, maybe 10-20 years from now they have to go through their "oh s..t" phase when miscarriage rates jump up or other effects happen.

We have just been through one of those routines with MTBE.

Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

Hello John,

IIRC that includes network equipment. So, what if your latest super widget simply contained a cheap jack with serial port signals that talks Klingon? Wouldn't that make it exempt? Maybe nobody says that whatever is on that "network interface" has to be intelligible ;-)

In Europe car batteries are usually recylced. But not all of them. Worse are other lead sources. As an example many roofs over there contain one or two "lead tiles". They are used where antenna poles feed through the roof line. In contrast to the plastic contraptions these do not weather out and become brittle. When someone re-roofs this stuff just gets tossed IIRC.

Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

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