Some things ya wish you never said

..and you haven't fixed a thing with 100000000 PCs connected to the "cloud".

Why not? His head does.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to 
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

So's mine. It's AMBER!

mike

--
It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my 
reasons for them! 
--Friedrich Nietzsche

That's an easy answer. If you want a major boost in performance as in gigabit ethernet, it will need to be done with CAT5e or CAT6. Wireless doesn't even come close, even with the inflated performance claims.

802.11ac might come close under ideal conditions, but not across the house or through multiple walls. I've done quite a few 10/100baseT to 1000baseT retrofits. The performance boost is well worth the effort and expense.

Then there are those that pay me to compensate for their unwillingness or inability to learn. I don't mind as long as they support my lavish and decadent lifestyle.

I added those URLs in case someone actually wants to try simulating something on a pad computer or smartphone. It can be done, but it's painful. For viewing previously created SPICE files it might be useful. However, I wouldn't know because I haven't tried the app.

Perhaps a larger tablet screen:

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

When a single PC goes down, support gets one phone call. When an update screws up the mainframe or central server, support gets hundreds of phone calls. I watched that happen at a major retailer. The calls started on the east coast and slowly drifted west as users arrived to work in various time zones. It may be easier to maintain a single central server, but when things go wrong, the work load and stress level is much higher than a stand alone PC system.

Also, taking down a single PC for maintenance is trivial compared to doing the same with a file server or mainframe.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

There is also the "security" aspect: much harder to eavesdrop and/or inject signals in a *wired* network.

And, wired allows you to deliver power to devices over the same cable (wireless requires you to have power available *at* the device... "wall wart, anyone?" :< )

Note there are different requirements for types of cable (fire ratings) based on where they will be running in the home. And, minimum separations between these conductors and power, etc. Esp any feeding "noisey" power loads.

CAT6 also has shorter limitations on max run length (look for 6a if you want to run 10Gb over any length). And, you have to ensure everything in the run is CAT6 compatible else you degrade the run to the capabilities of the "lousiest" component it includes (e.g., a CAT3 connector effectively makes this a CAT3 run!)

CAT6 also requires a bit more finess when stringing cable -- no "kinks" allowed. And, preparing the ends of the cable is a bit "touchier".

[You will be surprised at just how much cable it takes to get from point A to point B! I've lost track of the number of *boxes* I used, here! :< Also recall that the total cable length must include any patch cords on each end of the run, etc. Patch cords tend to quickly degrade maximum run length.]

I don't see that GBE will buy me ANYTHING over 100MB. The argument is exactly the opposite; what does 100MB give me that WiFi doesn't? Is it worth ripping up walls to get?

If there were a guarantee that you could fix their debacles, there may be a point in there. I suppose some do have too much money for their own good and you can help them take care of it.

Yes, I know a contractor who uses an iPad to show his remodels. He would never create content on it, though.

A 65" Android screen is a huge waste of time. Android is (barely) OK for a phone but as a computer OS it sucks.

If you're worried about someone listening to your *home* secured WiFi link, you really are paranoid.

Something I've never done at home. You're still tethered by cable.

Baloney.

Oh, good grief! 10GBE? Why????

Just how big *is* your house?

Is that really true? Multiply the stress level of that single person, who hasn't a clue what he's doing but knows he has work to do, by the number of those people and compare that to the stress level of the few in the "data center".

Times the number of people?

Some of my customers run image backups to NAS boxes over ethernet. That goes about 3 times faster with gigabit. Others like to watch digitally recorded movies. While the traffic from watching the movie isn't much, transferring multi-gigabyte files from one machine to another is a real time burner. However, the most common request come from the gamers, that want a few nanoseconds better response time. If you've ever hosted a gamers party, gigabit ethernet is a must.

Most CAT5e will do fine for 1000baseT. Most modern laptops come with a 1000baseT ethernet port. Mostly, I just replace or add a central gigabit ethernet switch. The most expensive potential item is a replacement NAS box, that can handle the traffic. I'm partial to Buffalo. The incremental cost of gigabit over 10/100baseT is trivial. If you're going to do the wiring (your decision), I strongly suggest you invest in gigabit ethernet.

However, if you don't want to hire and electrician to snake wires through the walls, you might look into PowerLine ethernet: or possibly phone line networking: If you have RG-6/u (not RG-59 which is crap) in the walls, look into MoCA:

Incidentally, I used to my own house nework wiring. As I got older, I decided that this was not what I wanted to do. So, I sold my flexible drills, snakes, inspection scope, and other tools of the trade and now hire someone to do the work. Running wires behind the drywall is fairly easy, but only if you have the right tools.

Really? I have several satisfied customers that have purchased Chromebooks, with run an Android OS. I also have one that I built. The advantages are:

1. It's cheap.
2. It runs the same apps and OS as their Android tablet and smartphone. That's a huge advantage to someone that doesn't want to learn 3 different operating systems and applications.
3. It's cheap.
4. It's substantially faster (and smaller) than the traditional operating systems, even on minimalist hardware.
5. It's cheap.
6. Instant on, cloud storage, cool games, very portable, real keyboard, real mouse, etc.
7. Oh yeah, did I mention that it's cheap?

On my desk is one of those great ideas, that didn't quite work as expected. It's a dongle, that plugs into an HDMI 1.3 port on an LCD TV, and converts the TV into an Android 4.0 ICS device. With only a 1GHz Cortex A9 CPU, it's not the fastest device, but it's good enough for the usual tinkering. If I owned a 65" display, it might be fun to use it as a big tablet. I wouldn't mind having one on the office wall as a big whiteboard, note taker, calendar, and address book.

Gotta run to a customers to undo the damage from AT&T DSL support. Without such ineptitude, I would be out of business.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Even if you don't have a file/image service running, just moving files from A to B can be annoyingly slow. When I ran 10Base2 around, files were ~megabytes. A minute or two for a "big" transfer was bearable.

With 100Mb, files are now *gigabytes*. So, a *modest* transfer takes those same one or two minutes (i.e., 1GB). But, a *big* transfer starts to be tedious (e.g., several minutes to push a DVD image down the wire).

So, I run Gb around the office -- which is where most of the "big" file transfers will occur. And, 100Mb throughout the house. The latter is overkill for almost everything. Biggest demand might be a laptop wanting to push/pull stuff off a file server. But, I rarely use laptops so wanting to move that much stuff and *not* carrying the laptop into the office seems ridiculous.

The automation stuff could work with 3Mb "orange hose" -- and still have plenty of bandwidth to spare! Even the multimedia doesn't tax 100Mb fabric (I've sized things for 4 simultaneous audio/video programs, concurrently -- of course, the biggest pipe needs to be at the media tank, not at any "appliance"!)

And be sure to use GOLD PLATED cables to minimize the "distortion" in their avatars! :-/

Best bet is to tie it in with a remodeling effort. There, you can be "crude" and not worry about what it's going to look like afterwards!

Of course, if you have a basement or an attic, it's a lead pipe cinch!

If you hire an electrician, make sure he is experienced in this sort of thing! You don't want to find out he used riser cable where plenum was required, etc. Even though it's not "power", there are rules pertaining to how you run signal cable -- esp if you don't want to find that every time your phone rings you drop packets! :-/ (from speaking with fire-fighter friends, apparently signal cable run "amateurishly" is a real risk for firefighters when the walls and ceilings come down/open and all that UNSUPPORTED cable tries to entangle them!)

I'm not exactly a kid anymore. My kid isn't even close to being a kid anymore.

Again, why?

You hire electricians? ...and you call your self an engineer? Not going to happen.

Why would I want power line networking? ...and I'd have to put in phone lines. The only phone line goes from the demarc, through the wall to the DSL modem. Again, I have WiFi, what's to gain form either of these?

It's too much like work. I have a hundred things to do in the jar before that PITA. I have access to the basement ceiling so 70% of the house is trivial. The two bedrooms upstairs are where I need the networking, though. There is a lot of attenuation going through two floors.

Cheap, yes, in every sense of the word.

The display needs a capacitive touch-screen, too. At 65", I'd think that would be a little difficult. The resolution is lousy, too.

Damage *from* AT&T DSL? AT&T DSL surely sucks but "damage"?

home."

Good point.

?-)

Most of the drivers for BOFH syndrome are gone. If you had followed BOFH for a while, clearing a whopping 5MB of disk space so that a user could function again on a terminal (or networked desktop) is typical BOFH action, but meaningless today. The current cost of resources over the decades has mostly eliminated the need for BOFH. OTOH braindead users have proliferated.

There are still "control freaks" in these positions. As many of them are pretty much given "free reign", there is noone with authority to bring sanity to many of their "edicts". They forget that they provide a *service* -- that they are "vendors" in the corporate structure and have "customers" to whom they must attend. Too often, doing things because they *can*, not because they *should*.

I've seen folks' accounts disabled because they didn't log out at the close of business -- forcing them to "go beg" to get the account turned back on and do sufficient mea culpa's. Web sites blocked for arbitrary reasons. Policies put in place where *education* would be more prudent (e.g., forcing passwords to expire often -- causing folks to alternate between "password1" and "password2" indefinitely instead of teaching them *why* their passwords should be changed; imposing quotas instead of letting people see how their usage effects others'; etc.) Arbitrarily "deciding" what tools/applications folks should be using based on how those decisions will affect *them* -- instead of the users!

Bring in a "ringer" and have these folks justify their actions to Upper Management and watch the confidence evaporate as someone

*known* to be knowledgeable contradicts many of their assertions.

[BTW, you *don't* want to be that "ringer" as you'll have enemies for life! :> ]

Just a minor note... 10base2 is 10 mbits/sec over RG-58a/u coax cable, also known as "Cheapernet". The stuff was everywhere in the early 1990's. I also run it over RG-6/u for installations that are mostly 75 ohm video cables and where two different types of coax would be a bad idea. I recently ran into a situation where I had several buildings running 10base2 over RG-6/u that I had installed long ago. They wanted more performance than 10 mbits/sec, but there was no room left in the conduits for running CAT6. So, I borrowed a pair of MoCA

2.0 modems, which are rated up to 800 mbits/sec, ran some benchmarks, and got 200 to 350 mbits/sec or about 20-30 times faster. I'm sure it could have gone faster, but I had quite a bit of RF interference. If you have 10base2 coax in the walls, you might consider MoCA 2.0. (Yes, I know it's 50 ohms, not 75 ohms).

It gets really ugly if transcoding a super-HD movie, from the NAS and then back to the NAS box. The movie effectively is copied twice.

I use nothing but the most overpriced oxygen free copper, magnetically shielded, and low hysteresis dielectric cables. (Actually, I use the cheapest cables I can find on eBay). For example, how about $500 for a 3 meter ethernet cable? A veritable bargain.

Yeah, that would be theoretically the best. However, in my admittedly limited experience, I've found that the architects and electricians involved in such remodels to be clueless. The worst was the electrician, who ran CAT5 for ethernet connectivity, around the house, in a parallel fashion, as if he were wiring the house for POTS telephone. Unless a potentially expensive structured wiring system is used, I have yet to see any such model include a central wiring closet for where all the "home run" cables come together. I'm sure there are wiring remodels that were done correctly, but for some reason, I don't get invited to fix those.

The last basement I had to deal with was actually a bomb shelter converted into a survivalist dungeon. Someone decided to minimize the number of pipes going in and out, resulting in a major bottleneck at the conduit. Rather than try to drill through the concrete, I built a patch panel for the various cables on either side of the undersized conduit, and ran miniature coax and flat ethernet cable in between through the conduit. About 3 meters of high loss cable didn't produce any problems. However, the flat ethernet cable didn't like the metal conduit, so the speed is limited to 100baseT.

I've only had to use plenum rated CAT5 (CMP) once, in an elevator. I used LSZH (low smoke, zero halogen). I used riser cable (CMR) between floors in office buildings. The distinction is fairly well known among the local electricians.

What they don't seem to know is network topology. I saw abominations like a single 3/4" PVC conduit to the roof, and then have the homeowner try to cram in cables for OTA TV coax, rotator control, satellite TV, surveillance cameras, neighborhood wi-fi, rooftop fire sprinkler control, etc.

Today, I now see lots of ENT electrical conduit (electrical non-metallic tubing or smurf tube) in the walls, and no wiring. The advantage to the builder is that it does not require an electrical subcontractor to install. The wires are added later. Unfortunately, the smurf tube is often run in an almost random fashion. I do my best to catch these during the planning stages, but more commonly get involved after the homeowner discovers that they can't necessary connections. Most common problem is lack of conduit or ethernet cabling in the garage, patio, or kitchen. Extra credit for contractors that run the phone wires, and forget to leave the pull string.

For fun, various CAT5 flame test videos:

I invented my own system for doing wiring above a suspended ceiling. Two eye bolts into the wall on opposite sides of the office. A steel wire between them, tightened with a turnbuckle. All the office wiring is suspended from this wire using ty-wraps and plastic hose clamps for large bundles. I've only done this twice, but passed the electrical inspection with only some comments about the strength of the wire and weight of the bundle. However, since I don't do wiring projects any more, I doubt this will ever become a standard.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Now that the kid(s) are grown, it's perfectly acceptable to act like them. I'm still a hell raising juvenile delinquent that never really "grew up".

Sigh...

1. The price of gigabit, whether retrofit or new installation, is not that much more than 10/100baseT. The most expensive part(s) will be the ethernet switches. (8 ports for about to ).
2. Fast is fun. I hate waiting for the computer or file transfer to finish.
3. It's there, so use it. Most modern devices include a gigabit ethernet port. All you're missing is the proper wiring and gigabit switch.
4. Gigabit ethernet is NOT rocket science. It's commodity hardware and nothing unusual.
5. Network traffic is increasing steadily. What may be barely adequate today (10/100baseT) will probably be deemed insufficient for tomorrows bloated and bandwidth sucking applications.

I hire licensed electricians because the city/county planning department, and the various insurance companies, demand that the work be done by a licensed electrician, or that I survive an expensive plan check. If you have a fire, and the insurance company finds that it was caused by a do-it-thyself non-code-complaint remodel by the owner, you may find that your insurance is not going to pay. Ask your agent. In the past, I would do the design, submit the plans, do the work, pay the electrician to claim that the work was ok, and have the county inspector approve the work. I save on the cost of the electrician, but lose far too much time dealing with the politics. The real problem was that it wasn't very profitable for the electrician, so they eventually got tired of doing it for me. Today, I just let the electrician do the work, inspect the progress to prevent creative disasters, and pass the cost on to the customer.

Incidentally, because I'm not a registered professional engineer, I can't call myself an engineer. I'm a "designer".

Because it's convenient and easy to install. Just plug your network devices into the wall wart, and you have instant connectivity. However, just about everything else is wrong with the idea. If wireless doesn't work due to interference or building blockage, and you don't want to run the wires, then power line networking is a possible alternative.

There are also power line connected phone line devices. The cable TV and satellite TV boxes used to use those to connect to the phone lines before they discovered the internet.

Or, so phone line networking isn't going to work.

Speed and reliability. Also some future proofing. I responded to your comment that you didn't want to tear open the walls to run CAT5. Please not that you haven't really described your house and network topology, so I only offer general solutions.

Well, if you want better wireless coverage, just install a wireless access point on each floor. A wireless access point is a wireless router with the router section and DHCP server disabled. If you don't want to run CAT5 to the bedrooms, then there are power-line connected wireless routers available.

One of my customers just finished writing his 2nd book using an Asus Chromebook. He says that it went much faster and easier than on is previous Windoze XP laptop because he didn't need to constantly deal with updates, malware, backups, and configuration issues. It was also half the price of a full featured laptop.

Chromebooks use a real mouse. If that works, then any of the "presentation" pointing devices will work.

AT&T didn't break anything. This was a business install, where AT&T lied to the customer by insisting that a business install requires a "professional" AT&T install. I don't want to itemize all the issues. Most were trivial, except for killing line 2 on all the phones. It took me about an hour to undo the "damage" and clean up the wiring.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Yes. Physically, it was much easier to run than 10BaseT to a "hub". I.e., I could run a 3 ft length from one machine to a machine sited immediately adjacent -- instead of having to run individual cables from *each* to some "third point" (hub).

Of course, it was a shared medium so lower aggregate bandwidth.

One thing I hate about newer technologies is the star topology and all the attendant cable that it requires. I've got a 16 port switch in the office and big bundles of cable tacked to the underside of the tabletops as *every* cable has to end up at the same point -- the switch! :<

House is CAT5 for network (and phone as it was cheaper than running CAT1/Level1) and RG6 for "CATV/antenna". As each "cabling system" is arranged as a star, I can conceivably locate a cable modem in any room of the house and "feed" the network from the CAT5 "drop" in that same room (one of the issues I considered when designing the wiring plan!)

But, with a switch, only those two links get trampled. At least the rest of the network can run "at full speed".

I "rescue" cables -- so I don't have to *pay* for them! :> Datacenters are always discarding boxes of patch cables, etc.

I've learned to mark each cable with its *length*! After countless times where I "unrolled" a cable just to see if it was "about the right length" for my needs, I finally realized I should do this

*once* and mark the damn things! Saves a lot of headaches! Though it's still a bit of a chore digging through the boxes to see if there is something "a bit closer to 11 ft, but not less"...

(sigh) "Wire is wire!" right? :<

We don;t have many *closets* here -- let alone a wiring closet! And, I also needed a place to put *equipment* so that added an extra constraint (i.e., can't use "non-living" space as the temperature extremes wouldn't support most of the kit!).

So, I managed to find various corners around the house to terminate each wiring system. E.g., the "phone" wiring terminates in a closet that has no electricity available (because phone wires don't need electric service!). The network wiring terminates in a closet in the kitchen (sort of a walk-in pantry) where most of the automation system "brains" reside -- along with the main "switch" for the network. And, CATV/antenna wiring terminates in a third place with power fed remotely (for distribution amplifiers, etc.).

Other bits of kit are hidden around the house in unobtrusive spaces. E.g., there are a couple of access points tucked away, some "locator beacons", plus all the automation kit wherever it is most convenient for the associated field connections.

Not ideal but at least it is all "out of the way" yet accessible.

As they say: "Make one to throw away" This is it! :>

Not sure that would pass today's Code. I think you need 2" separation from power, etc.

I user riser cable everywhere, here. No "air handling spaces" that would dictate the need for plenum cable. I find plenum cable harder to handle than riser (something funky about the jacket).

I have a box on the roof that houses connections for the DTV antenna and the microwave link. There are other places where cables feed devices more directly (e.g., a network drop feeds directly *into* the swamp cooler; another antenna feed at the other end of the roof, etc.)

"Random fashion" This is a euphemism for "totally frigging useless" as the homeowner later discovers they can't "pull" the cables they through the chase! :<

No, that credit goes to the folks who think they can use the cables *as* pull/fish tapes! And kink the hell out of it

*because* its so flexible! ("Wire is wire, isn't it??")

A colleague was complaining that some of the low smoke plenum cable actually emits really noxious combustion byproducts. So, instead of asphixiating from the smoke, you die from "poisoning".

I just used ceiling joists and wall studs/top plates as fastening surfaces. But, a lot of people just "shoot" the wire over the ceiling (suspended *or* plaster/drywall). Apparently a common code violation in many office buildings!

I'd never considered the importance of "supporting" the wires. I just accepted it as a "rule". Fire fighter friend clued me in on how hazardous wires are in a structure fire. At first, I thought he meant risk of electrocution, etc. But, apparently, its more of a "tangle hazzard"... when your body is effectively enlarged by all that fire protection and breathing apparatus, it is a lot harder to untangle yourself from these sorts of "rats nests".

Perhaps, but computer games?

Totally neglecting the cost of running the damned cable through the walls in a manner acceptable to SWMBO.

Since I'm on a 3Mb (on a good day) DSL connection, fast never is. WiFi is *plenty* fast enough.

Oh, is *THAT* all?

Ripping up walls isn't rocket surgery, either, but it is massively painful nonetheless.

Like?

I wouldn't live in such a fascist place. I wouldn't tell them, if I were dumb enough to live there.

Complete horseshit.

Um, we were talking about one's own home.

I'm not (an RPE) either but my title is still "Senior Electrical Engineer". Like I said, I don't live in a fascist state.

So is WiFi.

Why would I need one of those? I don't have a phone that needs wiring.

Nonsense. 'AC' will be plenty fast. I'll probably get there some decade. ;-) For now, 'G' is working and I can easily go to 'N'.

I have two WiFi routers in the basement. They cover the house now. I'm looking seriously at an ASUS AC router. Just gotta filter to the top of the wish list.

The problem is that I really need a full laptop, too, so this sort of thing doesn't make anything easier, except perhaps lugging it through airports.