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outside, which is air that is perfectly safe, how is that a problem??? Se ems to me the problem air is the stale air inside the house which is being exhausted to the outside, hopefully away from the intake.

air have to be cleaned before breathing on the inside of the house but not the outside?

filters for the incoming air, is the house a sterile environment???

on.

No one seems to be able to answer the question of what the issue of bio-con taminants has to do with outside air being filtered.

It's like the makers of soap telling you their product kills 99.9% of all g erms. Who cares? There's literally billions of them and after killing 99.

Inside air has contaminants, outside air has contaminants. There's no poin t in filtering the outside air and not the inside air.

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he outside, which is air that is perfectly safe, how is that a problem??? Seems to me the problem air is the stale air inside the house which is bein g exhausted to the outside, hopefully away from the intake.

de air have to be cleaned before breathing on the inside of the house but n ot the outside?

l filters for the incoming air, is the house a sterile environment???

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ontaminants has to do with outside air being filtered.

germs. Who cares? There's literally billions of them and after killing 9

int in filtering the outside air and not the inside air.

Actually, there is. There's a lot more outside air than inside air, and the contaminants in the outside air are exposed to hungry insects and other bu gs - not to mention the blue end of the solar spectrum during the day.

Set up a nice safe environment for bugs indoors and you get unfortunate inf estations. Legionnaires disease comes to mind.

point in filtering the outside air and not the inside air.

he contaminants in the outside air are exposed to hungry insects and other bugs - not to mention the blue end of the solar spectrum during the day.

nfestations. Legionnaires disease comes to mind.

None of that relates to a need to filter the organisms coming in through an air exchanger. They still come in every time a door or window is opened. Are you going to install air locks and filter everything that comes into t he home? Not using a filter on the device doesn't make your home any more of a "breeding ground". It's already full of contaminants.

o point in filtering the outside air and not the inside air.

the contaminants in the outside air are exposed to hungry insects and othe r bugs - not to mention the blue end of the solar spectrum during the day.

infestations. Legionnaires disease comes to mind.

an air exchanger. They still come in every time a door or window is opened . Are you going to install air locks and filter everything that comes into the home? Not using a filter on the device doesn't make your home any mor e of a "breeding ground". It's already full of contaminants.

You've missed the point. The air exchanger creates a particular sort of env ironment that favours mould growth. Let them grow there unrestricted and un

-noticed and they spread spores in volume.

Doors and windows don't create the same kinds of problems - if they had the traditional design would have been changed to deal with it.

Robert Hooke - of Hookes Law - is credited with the most recent refinement of the traditional sash window. He died in 1703.

ame. Apparently the liter was originally defined in terms of the weight of water. Now it is defined as a cubic decimeter.

from wiki:

From 1901 to 1964, the litre was defined as the volume of one kilogram of p

no point in filtering the outside air and not the inside air.

nd the contaminants in the outside air are exposed to hungry insects and ot her bugs - not to mention the blue end of the solar spectrum during the day .

te infestations. Legionnaires disease comes to mind.

h an air exchanger. They still come in every time a door or window is open ed. Are you going to install air locks and filter everything that comes in to the home? Not using a filter on the device doesn't make your home any m ore of a "breeding ground". It's already full of contaminants.

nvironment that favours mould growth. Let them grow there unrestricted and un-noticed and they spread spores in volume.

he traditional design would have been changed to deal with it.

Now you are starting to understand the issue. If the filter is so bad, why have it at all? There would seem to be no need since the outside air is n ot a problem.

I suppose that scheme might help in America too, if we had high voltage interstate d.c. transmission lines and lots and lots of solar cells.

A set of east coast, west cost, and mid-nation solar panels, enough to produce what, ~1kW per capita, = 3 x 1kW/(n=0.20) = 15m^2 per capita, or about 5e9 m^2.

~50 million rooftops would do that.

Cheers, James Arthur

I suspect kangaroos are like lots of critters -- romantic and cuddly on the telly, but a bit more of a handful in real life!

We have lots of skunks. They /are/ cute, smart, and readily domesticated. But even on good behavior, they leave a trail of the vapors ;-).

Cheers, James Arthur

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rotesting the construction of new nukes, they also pushed for the state to encourage conservation and it worked! They cut demand increases enough tha t no new plants were needed for a number of years.

As someone who lived there, that is a complete and utter misstatement of the facts.

California took a number of steps, ill-advised and poorly-considered, to meddle, take over, mismanage, and fiddle. For example, power producers were legally required -- in a free country, were /legally compelled/ -- to divest themselves of their generation facilities, and instead be confined by law to purchasing power from a California-created 'market,' thus turning former producers out of the production business, and into retail distributors, only.

(That socialist's vision of a state-controlled free market populated with bureaucratic fatheads is what Enron so famously took full advantage of. Enron loved it.)

And guess what? After that, they had less production! Whoddathunkit?

The net effect of all the foolhardy measures was to drastically raise the cost and reduce the availability of power. Their current quandry was the inevitable result.

Cheers, James Arthur

Yes, plus running the LED takes less wood / manure, while producing less smoke.

Cheers, James

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protesting the construction of new nukes, they also pushed for the state t o encourage conservation and it worked! They cut demand increases enough t hat no new plants were needed for a number of years.

You do realize that electrical utilities are monopolies and as such are reg ulated... hence, not "free" to do what they want?

If you have to be a socialist to want monopolistic electrical companies, th en every state in the union is socialistic.

So you are saying that as supply went down the prices went up. Amazing! S o people ended up doing without because of lower supply.

I know you think you understand the issue, but the reality is that you don' t even know what period I'm referring to, so how could you possibly know wh at happened?

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Well there you are -- they're hugging, how cute! :-)

Cheers, James Arthur

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re protesting the construction of new nukes, they also pushed for the state to encourage conservation and it worked! They cut demand increases enough that no new plants were needed for a number of years.

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then every state in the union is socialistic.

So people ended up doing without because of lower supply.

n't even know what period I'm referring to, so how could you possibly know what happened?

The bureaucrats literally expropriated the means of production (that's the definition of socialism), then wrecked the system with their mismanagement.

Was that easier to understand?

California killed their power generation capability, and they're reaping the bitter harvest.

Cheers, James Arthur

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were protesting the construction of new nukes, they also pushed for the sta te to encourage conservation and it worked! They cut demand increases enou gh that no new plants were needed for a number of years.

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Not entirely. Sometimes we pay other states to take our excess solar power.

Our home electric bill is tiered, by some algorithm that I don't understand. The top tier is 30 cents per KWH, which we occasionally touch. Good thing we don't have a/c and use gas for heating and water heating and drying clothes.

As a result of the recent fires, PG&E is going to raise rates.

's no point in filtering the outside air and not the inside air.

and the contaminants in the outside air are exposed to hungry insects and other bugs - not to mention the blue end of the solar spectrum during the d ay.

nate infestations. Legionnaires disease comes to mind.

ugh an air exchanger. They still come in every time a door or window is op ened. Are you going to install air locks and filter everything that comes into the home? Not using a filter on the device doesn't make your home any more of a "breeding ground". It's already full of contaminants.

environment that favours mould growth. Let them grow there unrestricted an d un-noticed and they spread spores in volume.

the traditional design would have been changed to deal with it.

hy have it at all? There would seem to be no need since the outside air is not a problem.

Sadly, you are busily reminding us that you don't understand the issue.

The outside air is a problem when it gets into environments where some of t he lifeforms floating around in it can thrive and flourish.

The inside of an heat exchanger can be one of these. You can change it - sl ightly - as has been mentioned in this thread, to make it less attractive f or growing mould.

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protesting the construction of new nukes, they also pushed for the state t o encourage conservation and it worked! They cut demand increases enough t hat no new plants were needed for a number of years.

The socialists would have been perfectly happy with power generation run as a government monopoly. It was right-wing fatheads who tried to convert it into a sort of free market and made such as hash of the job that Enron was able to exploit it.

James Arthur can be relied on to see an exercise in right-wing dogmatism as socialist-inspired, after the event.

The idea that the competitive free market is the only way to match supply a nd demand is a bizarre delusion, and usually comes coupled with the equally fatuous delusion that you don't have to regulate to regulate that competit ive free market.

Even Adam Smith knew better, but people like James Arthur who have spent ti me at right-wing de-education camps have simplified their thinking so that their rhetoric is shorter and punchier (if utterly demented).

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! So people ended up doing without because of lower supply.

don't even know what period I'm referring to, so how could you possibly kno w what happened?

Actually, "expropriating the means of production" is communism, and it deri ves from the "leading role of the - communist - party" which is undemocrati c, and was the unfortunate idea that got Karl Marx and the proto-coimmunist s thrown out of the international socialist movement back in 1871.

Like most of James Arthur's rhetoric, it's easy to understand because it's a false simplification. If you ignore reality, you can produce gorgeous rhe toric.

Donald Trump relies on this all the time, not that his rhetoric is exactly gorgeous.

California's right-wing lunatics damaged the state's power generation capac ity by trying to turn a natural monopoly into a kind of free market, and ma king a hash of the job.

James Arthur isn't willing to admit that it was people who go in for his st yle of dogmatic non-thinking who created the problem. California's power ge neration capacity was damaged, rather than killed, but James Arthur's need for rhetorical impact trumps every other consideration.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney