What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

Opinions on this vary, but it appears that sometime in the next ten years, domestic solar power will have an unsubsidised cost that is below the daytime domestic grid tarrif.

I need to be clear here what I mean by "unsubsidised". I mean that the equipment can be bought and installed without a contribution from either the government or the suppliers(s) of electricity. I'm also assuming that customers will be able to net off their daytime electricity consumption by selling their surplus solar power to the utility at the same price as they'd buy it at that time of day.

There are arguments about whether such a framework is really unsubsidised, but that's the definition I'm using here.

The subject is "what happens when...?"

At that point, rational consumers will install solar power systems. Further, for those that cannot raise the capital, I would envisage business moving in to install and lease the equipment to the consumer, because it will be possible to let the consumer have electricity for less than the grid price while providing a profit to the lessor.

So there should be solar panels on every domestic roof that receives enough sunlight. The grid will only be supplying electrity during the day when the sky is overcast. This affects the economics of the power plant. In particular, I would anticipate a move away from combined cycle (CCGT) natural gas generation to the less capital intensive, and less energy efficient, generation plant.

That less efficient plant will produce more CO2 per kWh than the plant that it replaces, but will produce less energy overall (since the solar panels are producing some). I have to wonder how that pans out. Is the CO2 purportedly saved by having the solar panels actually simply tranferred to the outputs of the less efficient generators?

The cost of this less efficiently generated power is higher than that produced by CCGT. Since that higher cost must be passed on to consumers, it means that the unit cost of grid power during the day will go up, thus further pushing the installation of solar panels.

Of course, that's based on unsubsidised solar panels with a simple net-off of consumption. For some bizarre reason, governments still want to help create the problem earlier than it would otherwise occur by subsidising installation, and forcing retailers to pay more for solar generated power than it's worth to the retailer.

I'm left wondering whether solar power is a mirage. Is it providing any benefit whatsoever? Or is it a complete and utter waste of money, regardless of whether CO2 emissions are a problem?

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else
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yeh right. they'll turn off the 24 hours generators during the day to produce more CO2 while they wait for the solar panels to stop working and can turn on again to make less CO2.

everyone over a means test should be paying 10X quota for grid electricity, if you have the means you can provide your own electricity easily

the only drawback to solar is it takes 20-40 years to install more and more panels, they're on 5% of houses in 2010, 10% of houses in 2011, now 15% of houses have panels.

the carbon electricity grid will just be a method to transfer power from one house to another - no power plants needed.

Herc

Reply to
Graham Cooper

Er, I think the fact that they don't produce power when the sun isn't shining is another drawback.

And when it's cloudy? What then?

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

Your scenario is based on the assumption that electricity can not be stored economically. Having batteries of such a scale will soon be more common though, especially with ever more electric cars, the numbers will make them cheaper. Lithium batteries are increasing in efficiency by about 7%/year, and with panels getting ever cheaper even the low efficiency NiFe type could be considered.

One has to wonder why large power plants based on solar and wind with battery storage are not in the pipeline yet. Large renewable plants with battery storage exist already at least in the US, Japan and China. Example:

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Personally I'd prefer nuclear LFTR generation, at least for base load. Shame that there is no hope though.

Tony

Reply to
TonyS

Part of the issue there relates to who would pay for them. Consumers will not install them themselves while they can use the grid as a free energy store, which is what the net-off amounts to. Disallowing net-off would change the economics of solar panels such that the large scale deployment wouldn't occur until the combination of batteries and solar panels were a cheaper source of electricity than grid power. It's going to a long while before that's true, the electric car developments not withstanding.

But I think it would be a brave politician who'd disallow net-off because most consumers would never understand the rationale, and would feel (as they're ever willing to) that they were being ripped off.

The grid side of the equation wouldn't install batteries unless forced to, because there are cheaper ways of supplying electricity - particularly when one considers that those other ways still have to exist to handle the not-uncommon situation where the sun doesn't shine for days on end.

The answer is that they're hopelessly uneconomic, and only get built from political motives.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

Apart from the solar issue, I reckon they should start a national grid system followed by an international one. That would go a long way towards solving the shortages in one area and taking the surplus from the active areas. Costly I know but the longer it's left the more costly it will become. The same goes for water.

R.P

Reply to
Rheilly Phoull

Wot Rot!

If you can pay your power bill 3 years in advance you can go to Solar and never pay a bill again!

You put a sheet of cardboard on your roof and get 100W for every 1m2!

Oh no! the clouds! the clouds!

What have you got your mums head in a cryogenic freezer in the basement?

Herc

Reply to
Graham Cooper

Graham, there are two entirely different situations.

The first, which is the one you're talking about, is where the government subsidises your solar panels, and lets you treat the grid as a free battery, and possibly pays you more for the electricity you generate than it's actually worth.

The other is the real world, unmodified by politicians who think you can legislate that one chicken be counted as two, where all of the costs of acquiring power have to be paid by someone, not just some of them.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

On 6/07/2012 3:40 PM, Sylvia Else wrote: []

It's the bleeding obvious:)

True. True is also that the present economy is a false one. The environmental damage is not priced in yet. Even with the carbon tax. We are using a technology that is almost 150 years old, because it is cheap and convenient. Shift the goal posts and you will be amazed how quickly new, and possibly even cheaper technologies will emerge. Example:

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Sometimes we need political power to overcome the power of the capital, to push the cart in a different direction. It's been dragging on for too long. Would you have imagined 20 years ago that so soon we will have

1000 Gbyte hard disks in a laptop?

Tony

Reply to
TonyS

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#12 $305

12V 100AH DEEP CYCLE GEL BATTERY Deep-cycle gel performance for solar installations

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$659

200W Powertech Monocrystalline Solar Panel

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$1400 (from $350 for 1500W)

2000W Sine Wave Inverter Charger Combining the functions of a pure sine wave inverter, battery charger and automatic transfer switch in one unit

BACKUP! Hardly a noise if you dig a small ditch.

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$899

2kW Sine Wave Inverter Generator

*******

Demo setup in hot city..

900W airconditioner.

5 hours direct sunlight run during day

  • 5 hour run at night =3D 1800W Solar Panels

200W =3D $650

2000W =3D $6500

5 hours charge at 1000W /10V =3D 100AMP

5 100AH batteries =3D $3000

That's an AIRCONDITIONER 10 hours a day.

If you can get away with fans or evap. cooling you could power 5 houses with that setup!

If you only power the aircon during peak sun, only 1/3 that price.

I'm setting up a $3000 - $4000 setup this month just to run a 400W halogen heater, microwave etc.

I just used my printer for an hour with a $50 inverter and the $500 panels and batteries setup I have now.

Herc

Reply to
Graham Cooper

What is the basis of that claim? Grid power equals very large economy of scale. Solar power equals expensive, high maintenance storage device.

Reply to
terryc

Way to shoot yorself in the foot. If there is one battery that would illustrate your point, it is the basic lead acid battery as in the standard car battery, or even derivative, aka the deep discharge lead acid battery as used in power systems. cost of them is still a major sticking point.

Reply to
terryc

Transmissin losses in both cases. You can shift electrical AC power around and minimises the losses by bumping the transmission voltage. SFA you can do with water, except pay monstrous power bills for pumping.

Reply to
terryc

l

It's the REPLACEMENT COST of the batteries.

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#12

12V 100Ah Deep Cycle Gel Battery $305

This will deliver 1200W for 1 hour.

But if you fully charge and fully discharge every day..

3 month =3D 91% 6 months =3D 82% 12 months =3D 64%

so it loses 9% every 90 days.

But if you don't run AIRCON and ELECTRIC OVENS

you can effectively trickle charge them.

i.e. have way more batteries than panels.

you can supply a good SURGE POWER - i.e. microwaves, pressure cleaners.. and keep the batteries charged for 1-2 weeks of cloud cover, but your total power usage must be kept down.

then you get triple benefit by batteries only charging / discharging 10% capacity each day

1 long battery life in decades 2 batteries always topped up over 2 weeks cloud cover 3 high surge power when needed

Herc

Reply to
Graham Cooper

And how much will you end up running it? Quite a lot in practice, and it requires an oil change very 20 hours. It's not designed to be used semi-continuously. The petrol costs will be significant.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

The cost of capital gets you then. All that money tied up in batteries that could be earning interest in a bank account or and capital gains and dividends invested in shares.

Sylvial

Reply to
Sylvia Else

I haven't looked at the details. Prices of panels have been dropping, and the price of grid power (particularly in NSW) have been rising. There's going to be a crossover point.

I've assumed in the discussion that no storage devices are involved. The point of the posting was not to argue that solar is cheap, or cost effective, but just to look at what will happen at some point in the future given the way things have been going, and to raise a question about whether solar panels are actually achieving anything other than to line the pockets of some manufacturers.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

Why are they magically cheaper when you replace them?

Very expensive.

Definitely not unless you want to explode the battery. That rating is at best 60watts for five hours. Any more or longer and the life cycles head south.

Then you are definitely fscking it.

Reply to
terryc

re

ill

997#12

that's only 5AMP! wouldn't even get warm!

you still have 64% capacity after 1 year, that's with full 365 charge/ discharge cycles.

This isn't my suggested usage, quite the opposite.

check the link there is a data pdf file which I quoted part of.

including the 1 hour discharge capacity.

Herc

Reply to
Graham Cooper

re

ill

997#12
5% interest X $10K =3D $500/year

WOW! I make that in 1 hour

We're not talking about you below the mean bludgers and pastry chefs.

Anyone living above the mean can fork out $5K for no-aircon, $10K for air-con solar setup anywhere north of Tasmania.

You can run an aircon during sunlight for basically free.

You can't rationalise changing from a centralised power setup to a intra-power setup using all the same paramters.

You have to work with the technology. You've have to ween yourself off 3KW ovens roasting chickens for 3 hours.

You have to schedule the aircon run times.

You have to use a gas oven.

You have to use LED LIGHTS for a small setup.

You have to charge your battery if you go independant after a week of cloud.

Although AMORPHOUS PANELS are supposed to work better in cloud.

Not that much dearer, but take 3 times the space on your roof.

Herc

Reply to
Graham Cooper

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