Ping Bil Slowman; The global warming hoax reveiled

Nov 21, 2009 485 Replies

America,

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I don't buy this, at all. Sorry.

Yes, the world has been warmer. Yes, glaciers have been much less in abundance. Yes, oceans have been much higher. Etc., etc.

None of this means these are directions we want to head. Nor does it say there isn't an historically unique rate of change in evidence today. Nor does it say humans aren't having a pervasive impact that contributes strongly to both the sign (+ or -) and the magnitude of recent rates.

You simply are placing yourself against what the current state of science theory and result says. And that's not a very smart place to put yourself unless you are in a position to claim a comprehensive exposure to it. The scientists active in these areas make it their business.

You've done nothing to convince me that you are in a better position to be able to say "this is quite normal," Joerg. It may sting a little to realize that I would take their word over yours. But in this case, I do. It's as basic as that.

Here's some quotes from last week's report:

"Has global warming recently slowed down or paused?

"No. There is no indication in the data of a slowdown or pause in the human-caused climatic warming trend. The observed global temperature changes are entirely consistent with the climatic warming trend of ~0.2 °C per decade predicted by IPCC, plus superimposed short-term variability (see Figure 4). The latter has always been ? and will always be ? present in the climate system. Most of these short-term variations are due to internal oscillations like El Niño ? Southern Oscillation, solar variability (predominantly the 11-year Schwabe cycle) and volcanic eruptions (which, like Pinatubo in 1991, can cause a cooling lasting a few years).

"If one looks at periods of ten years or shorter, such short-term variations can more than outweigh the anthropogenic global warming trend. For example, El Niño events typically come with global-mean temperature changes of up to 0.2 °C over a few years, and the solar cycle with warming or cooling of 0.1 °C over five years (Lean and Rind

2008). However, neither El Niño, nor solar activity or volcanic eruptions make a significant contribution to longer-term climate trends. For good reason the IPCC has chosen 25 years as the shortest trend line they show in the global temperature records, and over this time period the observed trend agrees very well with the expected anthropogenic warming.

"Nevertheless global cooling has not occurred even over the past ten years, contrary to claims promoted by lobby groups and picked up in some media. In the NASA global temperature data, the past ten 10-year trends (i.e. 1990-1999, 1991-2000 and so on) have all been between

0.17 and 0.34 °C warming per decade, close to or above the expected anthropogenic trend, with the most recent one (1999-2008) equal to 0.19 °C per decade. The Hadley Center data most recently show smaller warming trends (0.11 °C per decade for 1999-2008) primarily due to the fact that this data set is not fully global but leaves out the Arctic, which has warmed particularly strongly in recent years.

"It is perhaps noteworthy that despite the extremely low brightness of the sun over the past three years (see next page); temperature records have been broken during this time (see NOAA, State of the Climate,

2009). For example, March 2008 saw the warmest global land temperature of any March ever measured in the instrumental record. June and August 2009 saw the warmest land and ocean temperatures in the Southern Hemisphere ever recorded for those months. The global ocean surface temperatures in 2009 broke all previous records for three consecutive months: June, July and August. The years 2007, 2008 and 2009 had the lowest summer Arctic sea ice cover ever recorded, and in 2008 for the first time in living memory the Northwest Passage and the Northeast Passage were simultaneously ice-free. This feat was repeated in 2009. Every single year of this century (2001-2008) has been among the top ten warmest years since instrumental records began.

"...

"Can solar activity or other natural processes explain global warming?

"No. The incoming solar radiation has been almost constant over the past 50 years, apart from the well-known 11-year solar cycle (Figure

5). In fact it has slightly decreased over this period. In addition, over the past three years the brightness of the sun has reached an all-time low since the beginning of satellite measurements in the 1970s (Lockwood and Fröhlich 2007, 2008). But this natural cooling effect was more than a factor of ten smaller than the effect of increasing greenhouse gases, so it has not noticeably slowed down global warming. Also, winters are warming more rapidly than summers, and overnight minimum temperatures have warmed more rapidly than the daytime maxima ? exactly the opposite of what would be the case if the sun were causing the warming.

"Other natural factors, like volcanic eruptions or El Niño events, have only caused short-term temperature variations over time spans of a few years, but cannot explain any longer-term climatic trends (e.g., Lean and Rind 2008)."

"...

"Isn?t climate always changing, even without human interference?

"Of course. But past climate changes are no cause for complacency; indeed, they tell us that the Earth?s climate is very sensitive to changes in forcing. Two main conclusions can be drawn from climate history:

Climate has always responded strongly if the radiation balance of the Earth was disturbed. That suggests the same will happen again, now that humans are altering the radiation balance by increasing greenhouse gas concentrations. In fact, data from climate changes in the Earth?s history have been used to quantify how strongly a given change in the radiation balance alters the global temperature (i.e., to determine the climate sensitivity). The data confirm that our climate system is as sensitive as our climate models suggest, perhaps even more so.

"Impacts of past climate changes have been severe. The last great Ice Age, when it was globally 4-7 °C colder than now, completely transformed the Earth?s surface and its ecosystems, and sea level was

120 meters lower. When the Earth last was 2-3 °C warmer than now, during the Pliocene 3 million years ago, sea level was 25-35 meters higher due to the smaller ice sheets present in the warmer climate.

"Despite the large natural climate changes, the recent global warming does stick out already. Climate reconstructions suggest that over the past two millennia, global temperature has never changed by more than

0.5 °C in a century (e.g. Mann et al. 2008; and references therein)."

hehe. Well, I wasted my time already. So there.

Of course that's an important question. It's been answered, to a sufficient degree to be useful.

In other words, you don't want to spend the time needed to gain a comprehensive view. I can accept that. But realize what it means as far as my taking your opinion on any of this.

My feeling here is that climate science is huge. Really huge. No one masters all of it. But if you can't even be bothered to take a point you are making -- not something someone else decides to say or write, but something you decide on your own is true enough that you are willing to place yourself in a position of making claims about it -- and follow through with even that single thing long enough to find out where it takes you when you gain a fuller view of even that tiny corner of things....

Well, why should I care, then?

Yeah. It takes work. So what? Spend it, or don't. But if you don't, even in cases where you feel comfortable talking strongly about it... then it undermines (to me) what you say. You either care about your opinion or you don't. And if you don't, why should I? (On this subject, obviously. On many others, I'm all ears.)

Jon

Check out the ranges of forcings estimated here:

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" * water vapor, which contributes 36=9672% [a 2:1 range] * carbon dioxide, which contributes 9=9626% [3:1] * methane, which contributes 4=969% * ozone, which contributes 3=967%"

They estimate it using models:

"So how is Radiative Forcing calculated? For the most part, it is estimated using data from what is referred to as General Circulation Models (GCM=92s). These models use numerous methodologies[...]"

The same source goes on to give a 4:1 uncertainty range(!) for net anthropogenic forcing:

"Overall, the total net anthropogenic Radiative Forcing is equal to an average value of 1.6 W/m=B2 [0.6 to 2.4 W/m=B2]. This means a warming of the climate."

It's not clear to me whether 1.6 W/m=B2 is total forcing due to CO2, or just the anthropogenic contribution. Your reference gives the language of the formal IPCC definition, which amounts to "total forcing due to CO2," but then the writer goes to include 1.6 W / m=B2 in his list of man-made factors.

The IPCC itself is inconsistent, employing the first usage ("total warming") in one report, and redefining forcing to mean "relative to

1750" (i.e., man-made) in a later report:
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I took 1.6-to-1.7 W / m=B2 as _total_ forcing due to CO2, of which only ~1/4 is man-made. If I'm wrong, I'm off by a factor of 4. So, am I?

The above link gives the following relationship between forcing and CO2 concentration: dT =3D 5.35 x ln( Ct / Co), W / m=B2, where

Ct =3D current concentration of CO2, in ppm. Co =3D reference concentration of CO2, in ppm.

using 280ppm as the reference level, and 387ppm as Ct, that gives 5.35 x ln(387/280) =3D 1.7 W / m=B2.

So, my mistake. 1.7 W / m=B2 alleged as due to man, not 1/4 that.

(It's a good thing the reference level isn't lower, otherwise for the same absolute CO2 levels we'd get hotter and hotter and hotter.)

That's still a fraction--perhaps 1/10th--of the uncertainty over clouds.

E.g., from the first comment in this same reference:

"2) Cloud Feedbacks =97 This is the million dollar question in climate science, as far as I=92m concerned. Models vary even among the sign of the [water vapor] feedback, although as I recall most have a positive cloud feedback. See the post here for more information. I=92m not sure how reliable GCM cloud feedbacks are, as clouds are not resolved explicitly in the models. One thing=92s for sure.. this is an issue that will be around for some time to come =85"

-- Cheers, James Arthur

How do you think he ended up that way?

The movie \'Deliverance\' isn\'t a documentary!

I've had to turn the heat on the last two days. That doesn't usually happen till near the end of December.

The movie \'Deliverance\' isn\'t a documentary!

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Since I included the date and time and source of your post in my response to it,

"On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:08:17 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com"

I'm tolerably confident that I wasn't responding to anybody else, and yet there doesn't seem to be a corrseponding post in the archive that I can get at.

Granting your capacity to remember different things when addressing the same problem at different times, it does seem to me to be possible that you might have requested that your post should not be archived when you posted it, and are now remembering something different.

A charming story, but incompatible with you post of the 22nd November.

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In this context it is a lot closer to weather than climate.

If you were anything like as au fait with the current state of climate modelling as you claim, you'd be aware that the current explantation of the relatively slow warming over the past decade involves the influence of the North Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, which is still relatively poorly understood, though we are now starting to get useful information from the Argo program (which you'd know all about if you were as well-informed as you like to pretend).

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At the time when a prediction based on this insight might have qualified as a prediction, rather than an explanation, the Argo program was just being launched. Back then we did know about the El Nino/La Nina oscillation, and had started to appreciate that it shows up in the global temperature measurements

Several weeks becomes several months? Models that broke down that fast would be useless for the work that they are being asked to do, and I can't imagine that anybody would waste their time working on them.You do seem to be talking about a different kind of global climate model to the ones that the IPCC is interested in - and has to be interested in, given their charter.

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That - at least - is credible.

And that is merely plausible. Such a person would also be unhappy if their reputation were tarred by your imperfect understanding of what you were told.

Or at least the ones that you claim to know about.

Obviously not, because nobody in their right mind would use such a model for such a job., and your claim that they do would seem to have more to do with the imperfection of your memory than anything else.

That doesn't follow. It is difficult to predict the consequences of phenomena one knows very little about, and until we've got a lot more of the Argo data, we don't know how much heat is being moved towards the poles by ocean currents, or what routes it is following.

If you knew anything like as much as you claim about climate modelling, you wouldn't be be silly enough to claim that the late

1990's climate models were useless because they didn't reflect the influence of ocean currents that we didn't know much about at the time.

And a failure to predict relatively small, short term excursions isn't evidence that a model can't predict bigger, longer term excursions. You are bitching about a failure to predict the effect of a 20ppm rise in CO2 levels. It took an 80pmm rise in CO2 levels (from the pre-industrial 280ppm to the 360ppm in the mid-1990s) to generate enough global warming for it to show above the short-term noise level, and what has happened since then has been swamped - unsurprisingly - by more (relatively) short term noise.

We have every prospect of adding 200ppm more CO2 to the atmosphere over the next century. A model doesn't have to be too accurate to tell us that this means quite a lot more warming than we saw over the last century - quite enough to create worrying problems.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

You cite authorities. That is, you rely on experts to explain something that's over your head--you said that about the models, not me--and take what they say on faith.

I don't claim any authority, nor do I require any credibility. I only claim I can add, and read, and think. You're free to do the same.

I constantly cite public sources of raw data, but most people don't have the time to waste checking them. So for alls' sake I prefer to point out obvious contradictions, sanity checks. Quickies.

To wit, the common man doesn't need to know what makes a car go to tell whether or not it goes--he can just try driving the car and see. If it doesn't go, it's bogus. If it doesn't have wheels (i.e., if it doesn't solve an obvious, important problem), it's probably bogus.

Having some knowledge of cars--even incomplete knowledge--Mr. Everyman can do even better, even just spot-checking. If he lifts the hood and sees a hamster-wheel + rodent, coupled to the drive shaft, he can make some practical inferences w.r.t performance. Yes, even without calculating turbulent flow in the fuel (feed?) injectors, or factoring in positive feedback from a dangling carrot, or whatever.

One wrong constant in a simulation might show that as a zippy, efficient car with a 200 h.p. hamster.

Global Climate Models fail simple tests like that. They don't know from ocean currents. They don't accurately model clouds. Without those things you can't model heat flow from the equator to the poles, which is what drives our entire climate. That *is* our climate. They assume static ice sheets and static vegetation, i.e., semi-static albedo. IOW, they run on hamsters. And they're missing some wheels.

They're getting better, but they still aren't predictive 100 years or even 20 years--or even 10 years, as we've just seen--into the future.

So, pointing to GCMs as proof of apocalyptic prognostications of doom is, well, bogus. They just aren't nearly that good yet--they don't handle all the many factors well enough--and even if they did we have no way to prove they're right, to know they haven't omitted something important, or just plain made a mistake.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

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Few people are so lacking in a sense of proportion that they'd bother.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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John Fields has learned the word 'amicable". It is sad that he shows no evidence of knowing what it means.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

The ice still hasn't melted in my beer/wine tub from Thursday ;-) ...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

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This (above) is why many serious scientists dare not voice contrary opinions--they'd get lynched, and they know it.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

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Jim Thompson and John Fields both think that I'm a fraud. This is - of course - a devastating blow to my self-esteem, since I've always had such a high opinion of their judgement, but somehow I guess I'll learn to live with this public humiliation.

But I guess I'll stick around until they get around to telling us which of my hypothetical frauds they have discovered.

This may take a while.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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Except that they aren't.

And neither the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period were particularly dramatic temperature excursions. Denialists do claim that the existence of these small and local excursions proves that the warming that we are seeing at the moment isn't anthropogenic, but the logic doesn't really hold up.

To make the argument work you have to claim - and prove - that CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas, or that the measured concentrations in the atmosphere aren't higher than they have been for 650,000 years (as recorded in the ice core data) and probably for the last 20 million years (if you trust the geological data).

Worrying about the exact fate of Viking settlement is a rather foolish distraction, though your claim that the former settlements are now under a thick layer of ice - when most of them aren't and never have been - does sugggest that you aren't too careful with your facts, nor presumably are you all that careful about where you get them.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

SOL? I don't understand. The meaning I know doesn't work here.

But, I was referring to a whim I posted wayyy back, that you can curve- fit a polynomial that mimics history to perfection, yet has zero predictive value. E.g. the stock market, where that gets tried and is a temporary fad every few years, until it blows up.

Much of the evolution of the main models fits that description--build it, then monkey with the constants until it seems stable, as opposed to a) inputting precise measurements of b) accurately known parameters into c) models that faithfully duplicate physical processes.

I'm told that pre-twiddling the early models railed, either freezing atmosphere, or melting lead.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

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As I said - with an example - sceptical scientists don't get lynched and they do get published.

If you want to disagree, you need to provide rather better evidence than your fallible memory of what your anonymous informant told you.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

John Fields seems think that learning to understand the science that underpins our understanding of anthropogenic global warming is equivalent to being indoctrinated in some kind of religious cult.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

One of the requisites of a serious scientist is guts. In fact, bravery is fundamental to a lot of important activities.

Brave people are able to think, because fear doesn't distort their perceptions or reasoning. And brave people make the best partners in most any activity, because you can never trust a coward.

John

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These aren't, stictly speaking. forcings.

If you had read further down the page, you would have come across this line

"It is not possible to state that a certain gas causes an exact percentage of the greenhouse effect. This is because some of the gases absorb and emit radiation at the same frequencies as others, so that the total greenhouse effect is not simply the sum of the influence of each gas. The higher ends of the ranges quoted are for each gas alone; the lower ends account for overlaps with the other gases.[8][9]"

Forcings are calculated for for actual atmospheres containing specific concentrations of gases and this particular source of uncertainty largely goes away. Since the lapse rate means that water vapour concentrations drop away quite rapidly with increasing altitude, this isn't an entirely trivial calculation.

For the record, you have just proved - once again - that you don't know what you are talking about.

As I mentioned in the post to which you are responding, (a point also made in the wikipedia page you cited, but don't seem to have read either), the greenhouse effect of each gas in the atmosphere depends on the concentration of the other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, and you have to construct a model of the atmosphere before you can calculate a radiative forcing for that atmosphere.

=B2.

IIRR these are 95% confdence limits, and include quite a lot of uncertainty to cover features of the atmosphere that the current generation of climate models, running on the current generation of computers don't model well.

We may be able to do better in a few years

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Sloman is a typical 'meat popsicle'.

The movie \'Deliverance\' isn\'t a documentary!

The same kind of faith that I have in the results of most scientific work being produced by a number of separate groups of scientists working in parallel and criticising each other's work.

Just as well.

You don't seem to be all that competent in any of these areas, given your capacity to get things wildly wrong.

Very generous of you.

Except that when you cited

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it didn't support the point you were making, because you obviously hadn't read the text that you were citing. If it was a sanity check, you failed it.

Yet. Because we don't yet have the ocean current data to plug into them.

Yet.

Nonsense. You just can't model as accurately as you could if you had the data about the ocean currents and didn't have to smear out the effets of clouds.

The heat still has to get from the equator to the poles, and you can plug in black boxes that will do it well enough for government work.

Of course they are predictive. It's just that the predictions are a good deal less than perfectly accurate.

They aren't proof of apocalyptic prognostications of doom. They are tools that let us see that if we continue to inject CO2 into the atmosphere at the current rate or faster, the world will be several degrees warmer than it is now within a hundred years or so

The oceans will then be warm enough that CO2 will start coming out of solution - while at the moment some 30% of teh CO2 we emit is dissolving in the oceans ratther than increasing greenhouse warming - and it may be warm enough to start melting methane clathrates.

The last time this happened was during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum -

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which left the global temperature going up some 6C and staying high for some 20.00 years.

This didn't produce a global extinction, but did lead to a lot of speciation. If it happened to us, our civilisation would fall apart, and our population would crash, which is a pretty good approximation to doom

This is not a prognostication - I'm not predicting that it is going to happen - merely an observation that there is a risk that continued warming might pan out the same way it did in the geological past, and that our descendants might not enjoy such an experience.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

No. You want me to have blind faith in your judgement of the reliablity of the code. Granting your memory and credibility problems, even you should be able to understand that this might not be evidnece of sound judgement.

In a large number of different people who are publishing comparing the results they get from a range of different models. This sort of process seems to work well in a lot of different areas of science, and there doesn't seem to be any reason to suppose that it isn't working in climatorlogy.

I didn't say ot was pure. I said I didn't trust your judgement.

And your 22nd November report of what they had said was fatuous nonsense. There are several possible explanations for this, and none of them leave you with any kind of credibility.

men...

I'm glad to see that you can still use Google. A zillion is a conveniently unspecific number.

And yet - on the 22nd November - you claimed that climate models decline into chaos just as fast as weather models. All that expertise and you still manged to jam your foot firmly into your mouth.

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In another post which has mysteriously vanished from the archives?

But it is part of the usual denialist package on this subject. Granting the crap that you post, your "expertise" seems more likely to come from a web-site funded by Exxon-Mobil than from www- pcmdi.llnl.gov.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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