OT: It's Come to This...

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 9:30:22 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:

The book Merchants of Doubt, written by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway, ostensibly provides insight and understanding about the challenge to the climate science orthodoxy. Although cloaked in the appearance of scholarly work, the book constitutes an effort to discredit and undermine the reputations of three deceased scientists who contributed greatly to our nation. These men were accomplished scientists, leaders of universities and major research organizations, advisers to government, and the founders of the George C. Marshall Institute. This book questions their integrity, impugns their character, and questions their judgment on the basis of little more than faulty logic and preconceived opinion.

One is left to wonder why such a book was written. Two lines in the introduction offer a clue -- "... on every issue, they were on the wrong side of the scientific consensus" and "it is a story about a group of scientists who fought the scientific evidence and spread confusion on many of the most important issues of our time." These statements presume certain truths without justifying them. First, Oreskes-Conway assert the importance of consensus these scientists "were on the wrong side" of the scientific consensus, they state.

Science is not a popularity contest and scientific history is replete with examples of consensus views that were flat-out wrong. Second, Oreskes-Conway say these scientists "fought the scientific evidence." That should surprise no one. In fact, if the opposite were true, we all should be very concerned. Challenging the theory, hypothesis, and evidence is after all, the basis of modern science. "Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve, the philosopher Karl Popper reminds us. Finally, Oreskes-Conway say these men "spread confusion." Their actions spread confusion only in the sense that their views differ from the prevailing orthodoxy. The authors discount entirely the possibility that the questions of science were (and are) not as clear cut as is claimed.

Clearly, Oreskes-Conway believe these scientists were on the wrong side of the issues examined. But, this book isn't about the facts of the scientific and technical issues, it is about questioning the motives and intentions of the men involved. The approach taken is to first construct a strawman positing an illicit relationship between a scientist and the tobacco industry. Then these scientists are accused of providing "phony facts" about missile defense. Finally, they are criticized for challenging the so-called consensus on global warming. Throughout facts are mixed with pre-judice to construct an opaque view of these events and the role of these men and the Institute they founded.

Oreskes-Conway capture the imagination with a grand conspiracy with a central player - Dr. Frederick Seitz. In their interpretation, Dr. Seitz is either a pawn or a critical cog in the tobacco industry's plans to shield itself from criticism.

Who was Dr. Seitz? Dr. Frederick Seitz, the founding chairman of the Marshall Institute, was one of the nation's leading scientists. As a practicing scientist, Dr. Seitz literally advanced the state of the art; as an administrator, he led the nation's most prestigious research institutions; and as an adviser to government, he served presidents of both political parties on a range of topics of critical importance to the nation.

He was a recipient of the National Medal of Science, the nation's highest award in science, and the Vannevar Bush Award presented by the National Science Board of the National Science Foundation.

Oreskes-Conway allege that Seitz was asked by R.J. Reynolds to lead a research program whose purpose was to help the tobacco industry defend itself. Seitz did lead a research program funded by R.J. Reynolds upon his retirement as president of Rockefeller University, a leading biomedical research institution. Reynolds had long supported the university and there were strong ties between Reynolds and the Rockefeller families; both facts are referenced in Seitz's autobiography as explanations for why he agreed to assist the effort. Seitz helped assemble an advisory committee of extremely capable and distinguished scientists to help guide a multi-year, multi-million investment by Reynolds in human health research and development. Assisting Seitz with the review of those investments were Jim Shannon, MD, PhD, former Director of the National Institutes of Health, and Maclyn McCarty, MD, the junior author of the famous paper in 1944 that showed the importance of DNA.

Were they tacit supporters of this conspiracy?

Was Reynolds interested in discrediting the links between tobacco and human health effects?

Certainly, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether Seitz and his colleagues believed that or saw the research they were supporting as contributing to that goal. What Reynolds hoped the research would produce is not the same as proving that Reynolds forced Seitz and his colleagues to do anything untoward. In fact, the documents cited by Oreskes-Conway suggest the opposite -- that Seitz and his colleagues operated independently and supported worthy research. And there is little question of the worth of the research. It supported work which eventually produced a Nobel Prize by Dr. Stanley Prusiner for his work on prions.

Oreskes-Conway assert that the purpose of the Reynolds' research was to emphasize uncertainty and complexity. From that assertion, they imply that Seitz must have actively contributed to that goal because the emphasis on uncertainty and complexity would characterize subsequent efforts to challenge the scientific evidence of anthropogenic global warming. The truth is much simpler -- Seitz targeted the R.J. Reynolds research money to first-class researchers who did creative work on the causes of degenerative conditions affecting human health that was published in rigorously peer reviewed journals.

It should be noted that corporations have a legal obligation to conduct such research to meet the "duty of an expert" standard. If Reynolds had not sponsored such independent research, the authors would have also indicted them. So, no matter how they funded research, they were guilty of wrong-doing.

The tobacco strawman is a designed to enrage the reader and colors their perceptions of what follows. The message sent is clear -- industry's self-interest will always run counter to the public interest. The implication is worrisome.

Is all privately-funded research tainted?

Is public funding the only "clean" source of support for scientists?

Seitz saw a critical role for private funding (through companies and foundations) and saw dangers in science becoming too dependent on either private or public support.

Next Oreskes-Conway accuse Seitz of having "hawkish politics," of being opposed to Communism, and of embracing ballistic missile defense. Seitz, and his colleague, Dr. Robert Jastrow, are said to have exaggerated the Soviet threat and pushed "phony facts" about missile defense.

Who was Bob Jastrow?

Dr. Jastrow was one of the pioneers of the nation's space program, having headed the new agency's theoretical division whose task was to define the scientific missions that would be carried out in space. Jastrow helped convince senior NASA leaders that lunar exploration was necessary and worthwhile. He founded the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, which conceived and managed some of the U.S.'s most famous space and earth observation programs. Jastrow helped popularize space science through regular appearances on television throughout the Apollo era and authored a series of widely read books on the universe, stars, and space systems. Jastrow believed it was immoral and illogical for the U.S. government to intentionally place the lives of its citizens at risk of nuclear destruction by relying on the strategy of mutual destruction. Jastrow wrote that mutually assured destruction is "a cruel policy because it leaves the American people open to incineration by Soviet nuclear weapons and only offers the incineration of the Soviet people as a deterrent to that dreadful act."

Instead, like President Reagan, Jastrow argued the construction of a defense against ballistic missiles would not only defend the American public in the event of a nuclear attack, but also serve as a deterrent to such an attack by limiting the prospect of a successful strike. Also, like Reagan and our current President, Jastrow desired a world free from nuclear weapons.

Oreskes-Conway correctly note the controversial nature of these beliefs and the "backlash" of the much of the scientific community against them. Scientific and foreign policy elites alike rejected the concept theoretically and claimed such a defense was technically impossible. Jastrow disagreed and willingly engaged the public debate. He pointed out flaws that he saw in the analyses of critics. Oreskes- Conway do not weigh the details of the technical debate that went on at that time, nor do they care to evaluate the merits of the strategic debate surrounding it. Instead, they criticize Jastrow for being persuasive. Were Seitz and Jastrow opposed to communism? We suspect most Americans were opposed to communism and fail to see how that can be construed as a mark against their characters. Did they believe the Soviet Union posed a threat to the United States? Yes, again hardly a unique belief. Both saw the dangers of totalitarianism and were acutely concerned about the threats the Soviet regime posed to freedom. The irony is that elements of missile defense have been proven to work and Reagan's advocacy of missile defense contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union. Looking back, it is hard to understand why someone today would still support the strategy of Mutual Assured Destruction over a system which protects lives from nuclear devastation. Furthermore, in today's world, a robust missile defense system is an important option in the U.S. strategy against rogue nations and terrorists.

Climate Change and Global Warming:

Oreskes-Conway claim that Seitz, Jastrow, and Dr. William Nierenberg intentionally obfuscated the truth about man's impact on temperature by misrepresenting scientific information, playing up doubt where certainty existed. Far from it, these scientists were intrigued by the claims being advanced in the late 1980s and began looking at the evidence supporting and assumptions behind the notion that human activities are most responsible for warming over the past century and will lead to a climate catastrophe later this century.

Who was William Nierenberg?

Nierenberg was an accomplished scholar and leading administrator. He served at leading universities before assuming the directorship of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. There he helped launch research programs and projects supporting investigations of climate change and the human effect on climate. Nierenberg served on numerous advisory boards for the U.S. government and chaired panels investigating major environmental questions.

Oreskes-Conway allege Seitz, Jastrow, and Nierenberg sought to deny the human impact on climate by "blaming the Sun." They spend considerable time examining the Institute's first publication on the climate issue. Oreskes- Conway write: "The central claim of the Marshall Institute report was that the warming ... didn't track the historical increase in CO2 ... [and] since the warming didn't parallel the increase in CO2, it must have been caused, they claim, by the Sun."

Yes, the report, Global Warming: What Does the Science Tell Us, points out that temperature trends were not acting in a manner consistent with greenhouse theory. And, yes, the report discusses solar effects. Nowhere does it assign causation for temperature trends solely to the Sun. In fact, they observe a correlation between the pattern of solar activity and the pattern of temperature change and conclude: "These parallel patterns of change could be a coincidence, but they seem a more promising explanation for the post-1880 global temperature rise than the greenhouse effect, whose predictions disagree with the observed properties of the recent warming in almost every respect."

In fact, their work is remarkably prescient. Writing 20 years ago, Seitz, Jastrow and Nierenberg identified the critical variables affecting estimates of temperature and man's impact of climate that remain the central focus of the scientific debate today. They were: adjustments for uncertainty in the temperature observations (the quality of the surface temperature record has been shown to be in question); the effect of the ocean thermal lag (the role of the oceans and the movement of heat and carbon dioxide in the oceans remains an area of active study); adjustments for natural variability (our understanding of the natural patterns of Earth's climate is still under development); and the accuracy and reliability of procedures for estimating 21st century warming (processes based entirely on computer models and forecasts which have known limitations).

Their writings make clear the obvious points

-- the earth's climate is complex, science presently understands some but not all of that complexity, obtaining accurate current and historical climate data is challenging, and replicating the complexity of climatic processes with limited observational evidence in computer models has known limitations. If so little is known about a complex system like climate, it is not possible to make conclusionary statements with great certitude.

Nevertheless, Oreskes-Conway criticized Seitz, Jastrow, and Nierenberg for rejecting the scientific consensus that anthropogenic factors will cause dramatic climate change. To bolster their support for an alleged consensus, Oreskes-Conway offer a strong defense for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). The recent Climategate revelations should be sufficient to give anyone pause when examining the openness and credibility of the IPCC process.

The most recent IPCC assessment included three reports on science, impacts, and mitigation and a Summary for Policy Makers, which is what gets the most attention. Each major report is made up of 10-20 chapters written by a team of 10-12 Lead Authors chosen for their knowledge as well as geographic balance. United Nations politics limits the expertise of each team. Independent of scientists who are sought to contribute to a chapter, final decisions are made by the Lead Authors. Because being an IPCC author is time consuming, many experts will not volunteer to participate in the process. In addition, the fact that the Summary for Policy Makers are approved after a word by word review by more than 100 governments has an impact on how authors present their work. In reality, the only consensus is among those on a writing team.

Daniel Boorstin, in his seminal work, The Image: A Guide to Pseudo Events in America, goes to great lengths to explore and explain the growing tendency to measure reality against the image instead of measuring the image by reality. Boorstin points out that "American citizen-consumers are daily less interested in whether something is a fact than whether it is convenient that it should be believed. Today the master of truth is not the master of facts but the practitioner of the arts of self-fulfilling prophecy...In this new world where almost anything can be true, the socially rewarded art is that of making things seem true." Much of the global warming advocacy is built upon making citizens feel guilty for their use of energy and personal consumption and fear that their behavior will result in a climate catastrophe later this century. The solution is penance through sacrifice and increased government control over the lives of the citizenry.

In describing the Marshall Institute and its positions on global warming, Oreskes-Conway never talked with the Chairman of its Board, its CEO, its current President, Board members, past Executive Directors, nor apparently anyone who could shed first-hand light on the personalities and motivations of Seitz, Jastrow, or Nierenberg. And yet they write as if they are intimately familiar with the institutional and individual motivations. The fact that the Institute raises questions about the so-called consensus is hardly an indictment of distortion because its views accurately reflect both the underlying work of the IPCC and the National Academies of Science. Our major disagreement with those who speak with great certitude about human influence on the climate system is that the Institute is not willing to dismiss uncertainties as being trivial or accept that all is known that needs to be known. These uncertainties are not trivial and their implications are not well understood. The debate over climate science is not simply a disagreement about aspects of climate and physical science, but over how interpretations of science are being used to drive policy in ways which will make the nation poorer while enriching those who can exploit legislative and regulatory actions to limit greenhouse gas emissions.

But science is not just about science. Scientific results change lives, impact policy choices, and affect relationships between nations -- science has consequences.

Seitz, Jastrow, and Nierenberg created the Marshall Institute to help explain science and its implications to the public (a role no different than other scientifically-oriented think tanks and associations have established for themselves). The role of such an organization is to engage the public, the media, and policymakers, to provide them with information and to encourage them to ask the important questions.

The Institute has never claimed that humans do not influence the climate system. It does continue pressing the evidence and examining the assumptions in the prevailing theory.

For example, the prevailing global warming theory holds that increases in carbon dioxide lead to increases in surface temperatures. That has clearly not been the case over the past century and especially this decade. Further, for that theory to be correct, temperatures and water vapor in the lower atmosphere must increase. They haven't. But, more important, the Marshall Institute has not denied that global warming is real or that human activities contribute to it. Oreskes-Conway attribute positions to the Institute that it does not hold and then uses those allegations to denigrate the reputations of its founders. The Institute has never claimed that no action should be taken to address the climate risk. It has consistently stated that actions should be related to our state of knowledge and adjusted as new knowledge is gained.

One way to distinguish between the approach favored by Oreskes-Conway and that favored by the Marshall Institute is an example made famous by former Secretary of Defense and Energy James Schlesinger. In a chapter of a book on research and development and uncertainty, he distinguished between Cook's Tour Planning and Lewis and Clark Planning. When there is little uncertainty, R&D can be planned the way a long vacation is planned. When there is great uncertainty the approach used by the explorers Lewis and Clark is preferred -- act on the knowledge at hand, gain new knowledge and adjust actions accordingly.

Oreskes-Conway advance the notion that adherence to a radical free market ideology and belief that environmentalists were essentially communists in disguise explain the motivations of Seitz, Jastrow, and Nierenberg and the subsequent positions of the Institute. Seitz writes at length in his autobiography about the dangers of extremism in modern society. Careful reading reveals that his concern is not with partisan or ideological extremes, rather it is with those who see scientific and technical developments as harmful to mankind, and he feared their challenge would reverse the gains which advances in both have offered to humanity.

Yes, the past and current leaders of the Institute have deep concerns about the federal government's increasing control of economic activity in the name of environmental protection.

Is that reflective of the amorphous concept of free market fundamentalism advanced in the book? Hardly; our long-held position on climate change is simple -- government should take action on climate change commensurate with the state of knowledge and have that action be flexible so it can adjust as our understanding of man's impact on the climate changes. That view was plainly articulated in

2001. Do we oppose cap-and-trade or Kyoto Protocol-like policies? Yes. They are expensive and will yield little environmental return. Do we propose actions to take? Yes. Did Oreskes- Conway bother to inquire about them? No.

The techniques employed are not new. Al Gore in the early 1990s tried to get Ted Koppel to use Nightline to discredit climate skeptics. At the end of the program, Koppel made a very insightful observation: "The issues of global warming and ozone depletion are undeniably important. The future of mankind may depend on how this generation deals with them. But the issues have to be debated and settled on scientific grounds, not politics.

There is nothing new about major institutions seeking to influence science to their own ends. The church did it, ruling families have done it, the communists did it, and so have others, in the name of anti-communism. But it has always been a corrupting influence, and it always will be. The measure of good science is neither the politics of the scientist nor the people with whom the scientist associates. It is the immersion of hypotheses into the acid of truth. That's the hard way to do it, but it's the only way that works."

Nothing in the work of the Institute's founders or indeed its work has been shown to be contrived or inconsistent with scientific fact. That should be the only standard that is relevant. Indeed, many have observed the dangers of imagined fears and its effect on society. Robert Samuelson observed: "Good judgment requires good information. Every imagined danger or adverse social trend is not as ghastly as it seems. Consciousness-raising can be truthlowering. We fall prey to our fears and fantasies. We create synthetic truths from a blend of genuine evidence, popular prejudice and mass anxiety."

Although this observation was written years before the Oreskes-Conway polemic, it describes well their contribution to the public discourse on global warming. Truth is now a victim to the promotion of a political agenda and those who oppose that agenda will be dealt with harshly. Merchants of Doubt is long on innuendo and short on evidence or compelling logic. It fits well with Mark Twain's classic observation of about the gathering facts and then distorting them as the gatherer desires. If it were not for the attack on the Institute's founders who cannot now defend themselves, the book could be dismissed for the partisan history it is, but they cannot defend themselves and so the work cannot be left unchallenged.

Reply to
williamokeefegcmi
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tips for trolls:

"George C Marshall Institute" is abbreviated "GMI"

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Reply to
Jasen Betts

But not by the activities documented in "Merchants of Doubt".

Not exactly. The guys seem to have gone ga-ga when they got older. Eminent physicists can be expected to give good advice when consulted about problems in physics. Their opinions on the health risks of smoking are goi ng to be less reliable, and their opinions on the political consequences of stopping tobacco companies from advertising to kids are even less reliable .

Founding the George C. Marshall Institute should have lead to them being pr osecuted.

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It's described as a "conservative think tank" by people who don't want to g et sued, and as a liar-for-hire organisation by pretty much everybody else.

Sadly, the George C. Marshall doesn't worry or ague about evidence they don 't like - they just ignore it.

That is the denialist propaganda machines claim. Since they are much more a ssiduous about publicising papers that differ from prevailing othodoxy than they are about publishing the follow-up papers which demonstrated that the dissident papers had got it wrong, you can work out how reliable this clai m is.

There's nothing opaque about the view of the denialist propaganda machine p resented, and

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documents the way it works, and who pays for it.

The tobacco industry had a problem, and Seitz was part of the solution they came up with. His motivation to help the tobacco industry does seem to hav e been largely political.

But he didn't have clue about biological sciences, or climate science.

Seitz became president of Rockefeller University because he was an eminent scientist, not because he knew anything about biological science, and he wo uldn't have learned much about it by being president of the university.

Sure. They might not have known it - throw enough money at people and let t hem spend it on programs they think are useful, and they will repress any t houghts about why the money is being spent.

Not exactly. Nobody is calling Seitz stupid - though there are suggestions that he got less on the ball as he got older - but he does seem to have giv en more weight to the good done by the research that did get funded, and le ss to the shameless propaganda being peddled by the George C. Marshall Inst itute.

There's no opposition between supporting worthy research, and supporting sh ameless propaganda. All that's required is a spot of compartmentalised thin king. One department is doing something virtuous, and another something use ful to raising funds for the first.

Which is irrelevant. We aren't talking about the size of the bribe used to get Seitz on board, but the fact that he was bribed.

Seitz should have been smart enough to see what was going on.

That's half the truth. Seitz does seem to have been aware that R.J. Reynold s was providing the research money to buy credibility for their propaganda machine.

Nobody is objecting to the research. The Rockefeller University did good wo rk. The George C. Marshall Institute is quite another kettle of very dead f ish.

That's not the message. The message is that when industry self-interest doe s run counter to the public good, industry is likely to spend money on disc ouraging the public from paying proper attention to their best interests.

Obviously not. When it's used to buy the support of eminent scientists for a deceitful propaganda campaign, it does become distinctly suspect. Not the research itself - which has to be good enough to look good the scientific community if it's going to serve any useful purpose. Rather the influence g ained by funding the research needs to be looked at.

Obviously not.

That rather idealises his position. That will have been what he said, but i n fact he saw a path to extra industry funding by promising to scratch the tobacco industry's back if they scratched his.

There's no doubt that Seitz had hawkish politics. It's not an "accusation" but a documented fact.

The ideas weren't so much controversial as obviously half-baked.

"Technically impossible" is an over-reach. "Economically inaccessible" come s closer to the prevailing opinion.

The technical debate was complex - and quite a bit of it got published in P hysic Today - but the takeaway message was pretty simple. We'd have to pay the military-industrial complex a lot to develop anything that might work, and the device that could knock out an incoming missile would cost a lot mo re than the missile it knocked out. Jastrow wasn't nearly persuasive enough to get around that.

Sadly, consumer rights issue that was a the core of the anti-tobacco campai gn wasn't in the least communist or Soviet, and while it did put the good o f society ahead of the good of each and every tobacco company this isn't ac tually any more socialist than the FDA.

Missile defense was economically futile, but the Soviet Union may not have taken economics seriously enough to realise that it was a bluff. In fact th e downfall of the Soviet Union was caused by the fact that it didn't take e conomics seriously enough for them to make any serious attempt to buy the c onsent of the people they were ruling. America does seem to be heading down the same path, but no right-winger seems to be willing to notice.

Mutual Assured Destruction was economically feasible. Any missile defense s ystem could be overwhelmed by somebody prepared to spend enough on extra mi ssiles to saturate the defense, so it's an economic nonsense (quite apart f orm the fact that you end up with many more nuclear weapons around than you need for mutual assured destruction, leaving a very nasty downside).

But such a missile defense system need only knock out a few incoming missil es.

That was the fossil carbon extraction industry's tactic, adapted from the t actics that had worked against the public interest in other earlier cases. Seitz, Jastrow and Nierenberg were pretty much out of the loop by the time that anthropogenic global warming became as visible threat to the long-term profitability of the fossil-carbon extraction industry.

As "Merchants of Doubt" makes clear in it's opening chapter, the process of making life difficult for scientists who were publicising inconvenient ide as was handled more or less automatically by low level staff.

Who wasn't. But the people making life difficult for all the scientist dire ctly involved were busy earning their wages minimising public consciousness of this "notion" - which does happen to be quite a bit better supported by the evidence than the word "notion" suggests.

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In fact the first three claims in the 1991 abstract cited above happen to b e now known to be wrong.

Apart from citing "facts" that turned out to be wrong.

Whence the title of the book - "Merchants of Doubt".

But it's perfectly possible to be certain that we should stop putting more CO2 into the atmosphere, even though we can't predict the magnitude of the incipient disaster with any great precision.

The Climategate "revelations" were a damp squib, talked up furiously by the denialist propaganda machine in the run-up to the Copenhagen climate summi t. There was enough of a fuss that there were no less than eight committees that look into the "relevations" none of which found that anything remotel y interesting had taken place.

A more or less perfect description of world the denialist propaganda machin e is designed to operate in.

This is a straw man. I don't know of any global warming advocacy pitched in those terms. The reality is that we - as a society - have to spend money o n replacing fossil carbon fueled power stations with power stations driven by renewable energy, and on replacing gasoline-fueled cars and truck with t heir electric-power equivalents (and building the extra power stations to p rovide the electricity to drive them). Individual guilt isn't going to moti vate anybody to campaign for a different energy infra-structure.

Generating electric power from renewable sources energy is marginally more expensive - at the moment - than generating it by burning fossil carbon. If we merely enlarged the renewable energy sector enough to let it carry a su bstantial proportion of the load, economies of scale in manufacture would m ake it cheaper.

Taxing power generated on the basis of the CO2 emitted while generating it is an obvious free-market approach to motivating the switch. Since the CO2 emitted is damaging the environment, and governments are having to find pro gressively larger sums for disaster relief, better coastal defenses and the like, taxing the polluter does make every kind of sense, and doesn't invol ve any extra "control" over the lives of the citizenry.

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makes it fairly clear that talking to a propaganda machine about what they do to earn their money is only going to get you a heap of deceitful self-ju stification.

Or so they like to claim. In fact they do a lot of lying by omission.

Putting it more accurately, they are being paid to blow up any potential un certainty, no matter how trivial, as an excuse for doing nothing.

A very convenient stance to take when you are getting loads of money from t he fossil carbon extraction industry to maximise every possible uncertainty .

As opposed to leaving undisturbed the people who are enriching themselves b y digging up fossil carbon and selling it to be burnt as fuel, and screwing up the climate in the process.

Consequences that the major share-holders in the fossil-carbon extraction i ndustry don't like at all.

Except that the Marshall Institute seems to get most of its money from peop le who want the scientific evidence about anthropogenic global warming expl ained in such a way that the public won't object to digging up fossil carbo n and burning it as fuel.

The important questions, carefully selected and framed in a way that leaves the fossil carbon extraction industry free to keep on making money for a f ew more years.

In other words they are keeping their lying small scale and vaguely credibl e.

That's a lie.

That's another lie. They have.

The Marshall Institute sets up a straw man - that it denies global warming

- and side-steps the real issue which is that it currently functions to min imise public support for doing anything effective to slow down anthropogeni c global warming.

Meaning lets not do anything yet while there's still money to be made out o f digging up fossil carbon and selling it as fuel.

It may have explained the position of Seitz, Jastrow and Nierenberg. The po sitions of the Institute are more simply explained as those of bunch of lia rs for hire, selling their skills at obfuscation to the highest bidder.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com does - sort of - match

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'Keefe

who is - apparently - Chief Operating Officer of the George C. Marshall Institute.

If he's being impersonated by a troll, there seems to have been some energetic cutting and pasting to get the remarkably voluminous (and completely vacuous) heap of rubbish that got posted here.

If I had access to plagiarism detection software, I might be able to do better.

I do post the link

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from time to time, and this the first time it has provoked any kind of knee-jerk reaction.

Maybe the the Marshall Institute has cobbled together an automatic troll-like response system for dumping crap in user-groups.

I think I'll label it as spam and see what happens.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

700+ lines is a lot of text, I figured that such a big rant wasn't original.

I googled one of the paragraphs that looked distinctive got a hit on "Clouding the truth"

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I use google (as above)

The sender address is recognised by gmail, However I don't think the real William O'Keefe would have used that abbreviation.

I suspect the gmail account was created by the troll and has only posted once.

The ip address google reports matches one used recently by "demonic tubes" in the custom enclosure thread. The only two google groups posts here from that /24 this year.

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Reply to
Jasen Betts

Institute.

ergetic cutting and pasting to get the remarkably voluminous (and completel y vacuous) heap of rubbish that got posted here.

al.

better.

l-like response system for dumping crap in user-groups.

I don't think that a troll would have been anything like as comprehensive.

I agree that the e-mail address isn't real, but it is the kind of address t he George C. Marshall Institute might have set up for a semi-automated spam ming source. It's also the kind of address that might be set up by a right- wing loony who sincerely believed that the George C. Marshall Institute was a morally impeccable right-wing think tank.

Joey Hey is stupid enough to believe something like that, and James Arthur could be that brainwashed. I can't see either of them spending the time to cut and paste some 700 lines of text.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

75-174-61-128.bois.qwest.net

Boise Idaho

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Grizzly H.
Reply to
mixed nuts

So? The weather and climate don't depend on that.

There are seven billion people with an interest in the events of global climate, and the warming that will persist for centuries. You can't second-guess climate from presence or absence of interest. You can, however, discount advertisement and directed-reporting pseudonews because interested parties have deep pockets. Have you ever heard of the fifty-cent army?

Reply to
whit3rd

I didn't hear any climate enthusiasts come forward to deny the claims Al Gore made that by now the whole of Antarctica would be melted or whatever stupid claim he made. So I guess they were quite ok with that malicious speech of him. Which makes me distrust that whole community.

There are 7 billion people, most of whom are not climate scientists and have to rely on the truthfulness of statements from the high priests of climate science because they themselves can not possibly check the details of the theories, the models, the measurements etc. If they'd try, the whole economy would come to a halt because people aren't doing their work anymore because they have to find out whether AGW is true or not.

In other words, people have to rely on the statements of the AGW crew. And not only that, they also have to rely on their gut feeling, because if the 'story' that they are being told doesn't 'feel good', they will reject it, as they have no science to fall back on.

So if somebody like Gore is telling a shit story, the AGW community better denounce it as forcefully as they can, because when the truth comes out that it was all a hoax he was telling, intended to scare everybody into accepting carbon taxes which will give him a tremendous financial gain, they will reject not only Gore's story, but the whole AGW story as a myth and a hoax.

They didn't. They liked his (Gore's) performance and thought it was a good PR. Stupid move if you ask me, and counter-productive to their 'cause'.

Kissinger said that you can fool some people most of the time, most people some of the time, but not all people all of the time. So, even if your intentions are good, when you rely on fooling people to advance your cause, the truth _will_ come out and the shit _will_ hit the fan.

Bye bye AGW-theory...

joe

Reply to
Joe Hey

He was pretty careful about what he said - unlike some of the more enthusia stic climate change popularisers - and what he's said has stood up pretty w ell.

You, on the other hand, are a half-wit who hasn't got a clue what he's talk ing about.

As if anybody cares who you distrust. You trust the vaccination anxiety ped dlers, which is an even more spectacular error of judgement.

In fact they can. It just takes more work than you are willing to put in, a nd a bit more sense than you've ever exhibited here.

't

e or

That's not the way it works. Most people have some idea of which other peop le they can trust - you don't because you are as thick as brick, and specta cularly gullible with it - and they can deputise most of the work.

Not exactly. The PNAS article on the collective opinion of climatologists c hecked out a bit over 1000 practicising climatologists - who published on t he subject - and sorted out the 300 best by citation rates and the like (29

0 of whom accept anthropogenic global warming, while the other ten looks as if they don't accept it for rather less than rational reasons).

You don't have to dig hard to find somebody who knows somebody in that crew .

Who pays any attention to whether a story 'feels good'? All that tells you is that the story has been spun one way or another.

You've got all that precisely the wrong way around. Al Gore was a climate s cience groupie from his undergraduate days, when Roger Revelle

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was one of his lecturers. Gore has always had good advice from the climate science community, and his popularisations are actually remarkably good. He was popularising the science long before it looked as if there was ever go ing to be any money in it.

If you weren't such an ignorant half-wit, you could have worked this out fo r yourself, but instead you prefer to let denialist web-sitres do your thin king for you, and post utter nonsense about "hoaxes" when you are the gulli ble sucker who has been hoaxed.

Anybody who asked your opinion on the subject (or any other) would either be displaying a severe weakness of judgement, or a strong desire to be ente rtained

Lincoln said it first, and rather better

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In reality, bye-bye denialist web-sites. You are in that fraction of the po pulation who can be fooled all the time.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

Wrong.

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Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Yeah, right:

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It doesn't even matter what I, like the majority of the other 7 billion or so inhabitants of this world understand of what he's talking about.

What we do understand however, is that he likes to lie about the urgency (20 foot sea level rise by now) and that he has huge financial interests in the creation of carbon certificates and taxes.

Your blackmouthing of people is a malicious attempt to, instead of going into the arguments, try to destroy the perceived character of the one bringing the arguments, in order to make people who read the arguments get the a-priori feeling that if the person is 'bad', his arguments also 'must somehow be bad'.

It also gives us a not so nice view in your not so nice character, to put it mildly.

Further I totally fail to see in whatever most remote way vaccinations have to do with global warming.

And, as I said, it will bring the economy to a temporary halt. Sorry, but 6.9 billion people are _not_ going to dig into the backgrounds of global warming.

Yes, let's deputise the IPCC with 'most of the work'. Nice try. :)

What part of the world's population do you estimate has ever read a PNAS article? And since when is consensus = science?

The majority doesn't do that.

How about 6.9 billion people who don't follow the scientific contents of the whole debate because it's way above their head?

Yes, it's been spun the other way...

What has that got to do with his inconvenient lies? It is just a perfect example how science can be, and is, abused to further people's financial and business interests. You talk like science, construct some whacky model, 'adjust' it so that it supports your message of doom, and in comes the money. The analogy with religion is clear. The Roman catholic church did this already in the middle ages: tell people they'll be doomed, unless they pay up. Make them feel guilty, so they will be happy to pay that tax, without any murmuring. Ideal! Heck, before there was even religion the priests-to-be astrologists already extracted money from the gullible by 'predicting' the stars. It's a money scheme as old as the world, but Bill Sloman easily falls for it.

} snipped some totally OT stuff{

The more you blackmouth people, the less they will accept your views.

Can you site one 'denialist web-site' which draws that parallel with religion?

Yes, you make it abundantly clear you are an arrogant prick. :)

You're totally wrong. I was, but I am no more. I have been fooled enough and finally start to see the lies in all the spins of governments, institutions and corporations and the 'useful idiots' who without knowing it further their interests. A bit like the way you are doing here...

joe

Reply to
Joe Hey

This sounds about right:

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And it looks like the (latest) great California drought is about over. It's barely January and Suger Bowl has had over 200" of snow.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 07:45:17 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@krl.org" Gave us:

Good job!

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence, clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgobblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Well that proves it, doesn't it? Drought proves man's wrecked the weather. So does rain. Q.E.D.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

On Tuesday, 5 January 2016 02:45:30 UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote:

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Come on, John. Do we have to tell you the difference between climate and weather, again? Weather is when it gets cold. Climate is when it gets warm. Weather is when it's pleasant outside. When it gets nasty, it's climate.

Reply to
krw

onvenient-Untruths.html

Did you read the nine "untruths"? Which were from the film, not Al Gore's b ook.

For two of them - ice sheet collapse and turning off the Gulf Stream - the judge is plain wrong. He claimed that it would take millenia for the ice sh eets to melt, which would be true if the ice sheets were to stay on Greenla nd and the West Antarctic land mass. As James Hansen has pointed out recent ly (and has been known for some time) ice sheets tend to slide off into the ocean, and melt there, which happens a lot faster. The last time it happen ed in the Atlantic (when the Laurentian ice sheet slid into the sea at the end of the last ice age) we got the Younger Dryas because the Gulf Stream t urned off for 1300+/-10 years. The rest are pretty trivial.

You do seem to be stupider and more gullible than most of the other 7 billi on,

Most people have the sense to recognise a denialist stunt for what it is, p articularly when it's published in the Daily Telegraph, which makes a habit of publishing denialist propaganda, but you are dumb enough to take it as gospel.

Nobody ever claimed that a six metre seal level rise was imminent. It's wid ely recognised that it is inevitable. Hansen has claimed that it might happ en within a few hundred years, but the mechanical process of the ice sheets sliding off into the ocean is hard to model, since all the interesting stu ff is going on under miles of ice.

It's not you character that I'm worried about, it's your competence. You ma ke a habit of posting total nonsense - your uncritical recycling of the Dai ly Telegaph's rubbish is a typical example - and I draw people's attention to the fact that you can't do critical thinking.

The fact that you can't think straight, and can't realise that you aren't t hinking straight isn't - technically speaking - a character defect, but in combination with your fatuous over-confidence in your intellectual capacity it does make you a menace to society.

You don't like being identified as a half-wit, but you are a menace, and an y responsible observer would have to point this out.

You've posed dangerous nonsense about vaccination, and now you are posting dangerous nonsense about anthropogenic global warming. You don't have a sin gle blind spot but rather make a habit of getting stuff wrong.

As usual you've got that wrong too. The transition to renewable energy sour ces might slow down the economy a bit, but it's got to be spread over a dec ade or more. What the fossil energy extraction industry doesn't mention is that fossil carbon is a finite resource, and as we keep on digging up more of it, we are finding it progressively harder, and more expensive, to find deeper deposits and dig them out. We'll have to move to renewable energy an yway, and it makes sense to do it a bit earlier and save as much of the cli mate aswe can in the process.

That's exactly what the IPCC was set up for. They are doing a respectable j ob, but the fossil carbon extraction industry finds the truth inconvenient, and is spending quite a lot of money trying to get gullible half-wits like you to distrust the IPCC. If you had any sense, you'd distrust the deniali st propaganda machine, but you are a very gullible half-wit.

Ever since there's been science. "Science" involves scientists communicatin g their observations, and the conclusions they draw from them, by publishin g them in what are now peer-reviewed journals. Read the history sometime.

No. They rely on their better-informed friends to do it for them. You are p osing as one of those friends, while remaining thoroughly mis-informed.

Why 6.9 million? Since most of the scientific debate is published in Englis h, only about 2 billion - at most - could follow it,even if they could acce ss it.

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wer.do?requestId=4200224

First point is that Al Gore didn't lie. Your Daily Telegraph story is about a court case engineered by Christopher Monckton for denialist propaganda m achine, where the judge got suckered by the denialist "expert opinions".

Sure. The science was abused by the denialist propaganda machine, to furthe r their plan to dig uo as much fossil carbon as possible and keep on sellin g it as fuel. You are one of the gullible suckers taken in by this abuse.

Your ideas about "climate models" don't have any connection to the real thi ng.

"Blackmouth" isn't an English phrase. Nobody would take me seriously if I s aid nice things about you - there isn't anything nice to be said about your combination of intellectual arrogance and total ignorance.

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Since the author cites Anthony Watts as an authority of on climate change - as opposed to part of the denialist propaganda machine, which would be mor e accurate

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it's probably fair to label it as a denialist web-site.

Dream on.

You are definitely an idiot, and you re-post enough denialist propaganda to make you useful to the denialist propaganda machine. Since you are an obvi ous idiot, you are less useful than slightly smarter people - like James Ar thur - who can articulate their fatuous ideas rather better.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

convenient-Untruths.html

In fact it's total nonsense. Anybody who can talk about ice cores and not n otice that atmospheric CO2 levels go from 180 ppm during ice ages to about

270 ppm during interglacials is either an idiot or a liar. Since the bullsh it is vaguely plausible, I'd opt for liar.

There's an intense El Nino going on.

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An intense El Nino tends to be associated with more than normal precipitati on in California, Trust John Larkin not to have noticed.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

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