OT: Health care in other countries

I can't say that I've noticed any such an attitude in any of the political elite that I've run into, and the level of ignorance that krw and Jim manage to exhibit hasn't been visible in my friends and co- workers in the U.K. or the Netherlands. Europe hasn't been short of political philosophers - Marx, Engels and the Fabian Society come to mind - and the various political philosophies do have a lot of popular support in the form of grass-roots politcal support for the major political parties

A very strange way of looking at an election where a much smarter, and more sophisticated candidate got a definite majority over the dimmer candidtate, who was stuck with standing for the Republican party who'd just spend eight years making a mess of the country because they didn't know what thye were doing.

If you are planning on working with animals that might carry rabies you are likely to get three single shots of killed virus vaccine to stimulate your immune system to produce anti-bodies

If you get bitten by a potentially rabid animal and you haven't had a protective vaccination against rabies, you will get five - much larger

- shots of vaccine (into the stomach, where there's space for all the fluid) as well as a shot of rabies immunoglobulin (basically raabies anti-bodies).

It's a much bigger deal, and correspondingly more expensive. Jim's as reliably out of touch with reality as ever.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

This sound like a complete joke coming from someone living in a country with only two political parties (worse and worse). Have you ever been to Europe? Any idea how governments get elected?

So you have worse, worse, worse, worse, worse, worse, and worse...?

Yes. Many times. You don't pay much attention do you ?:-)

Yes. And sometimes I even think a parliamentary system would be better for us as well. Then I remember Chamberlain, and numerous French and Italian prime-minister-duds.

...Jim Thompson

That sums it up quite nicely. But the result is always a compromise which for some reason turns out not te be so worse. Just like mixing colors. You'll always end up with some sort of grey everybody can live with.

Live hurts more, but not for very long. ;-)

Cheers! Rich

You could always learn to take care of your own health. (eat right, sleep right, exercise, don't have sex with AIDS people, etc.); Learn how to not crash your car, don't climb broken ladders, etc.

For cancer, find your denied self-hatred and heal _that_.

There's ALWAYS work, if you can swallow your pride - the other day, I saw a white guy operating a leaf blower on a yard crew - in Southern California!

My favorite temp job (other than electronics) is document coding.

Where I'm sitting now, the work is sporadic, but the fringe bennies are great - I can smoke at my desk, and play on the computer when I'm between work. ;-)

Cheers! Rich

You seem to be ignoring the previous two.

The Income Tax signed the death warrant for Liberty in America - the Osama^H^H^H^Hbama administration will be the last nail in the coffin.

Thanks, Rich

And that helps infants born with congenital defects or allergies to the common cheap antibiotics how exactly? Haemophiliacs did nothing wrong but a high proportion were infected with HIV and HepC in the 70's and

Childhood illnesses are particularly at the forefront in the UK since the leader of the opposition sadly lost his 6 year old son yesterday. Parliament was suspended briefly as a mark of respect.

The US population is bimodal. There are a small percentage of fitness freaks who are fitter than me, and a huge rump of about 30% that are grossly overweight to the point of life shortening consequences.

You can't know in advance if you will develop some nasty disease requiring expensive long term treatment. That is why national health insurance is so effective with treatment according to clinical need rather than ability to pay. I would rather pay for a decent health service and never need to use it than "get my moneys worth". YMMV

Regards, Martin Brown

You mix up two cases 1) bad luck, 2) self-destruction.

The cost of the former, both in numbers and dollars, is insignificant compared to the latter.

And insurance against disaster is quite different from wanting government to pay for your aspirin, headaches, and athlete's foot. (And in-vitro octuplets:

Of course even if you behave yourself, you'll eventually die of something. Government doesn't fix that. And infinite $$ doesn't either. Rich people die too.

In the U.S. government is the main reason for the high prices. High taxes is what drove people to getting pay in the form of insurance in the 1970's--income was taxed, insurance wasn't. So tax evasion was the original motive. Now, subsidies support ever higher prices.

And nobody's spending their own money, so no one cares (or even knows) how much anything costs. There's a complete absence of pricing feedback, no competition, and total insulation from the effects of supply and demand. Market forces are nil, defeated by interventions.

Not much different from how government made the housing bubble, really.

I envision the queue at the FreddieMed window:

"Here, pee on this Liar Loan form..."

Cheers, James Arthur

Medical pricing is all a hoax.

My experience is that Medicare pays about 30% of "list price", then my supplemental policy pays maybe 15%-20% of list. Then the account is called "paid-in-full" ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Rich Grise writes

...

...

Incongruous juxtaposition! Must be some reference I don't understand to American health schemes. ;)

And you answered my question about Live vs Neutral! Thanks!

(Just remembered an engineer I met years ago who liked using valves. Claimed he measured voltages by how much they stung when you touched them, ie, "that's 240V... that's 600V...". He's still alive!)

Ah, you haven't been around long enough to understand Rich doesn't believe that smoking causes cancer -- "negative thoughts" or somesuch do...

Cancer causes smoking? ;-)

In the Philippines (220V), they typically defeat the ground with "special" adapters. I'd charge my laptop over there, and if you weren't careful you'd get a little sting anytime you touched a metal part on the laptop (headphone ground for instance). Someone once touched the screen and got a nasty surprise shock.

Ouch! Especially considering this:

Thanks,

Michael

Yes. But in the event of (1) such bad luck what does the USA do? Is that why infant mortality is apparently so high over there?

With no safety net someone with an expensive medical condition and only modest means is basically doomed. Once you have an expensive condition private insurance is going to be sky high.

I believe that the small number of unlucky souls deserve to be subsidised by the majority of healthy ones. And I would prefer to remain in the latter camp for as long as possible.

That is where an outsiders take on the system is different.

When I go to the USA I have to pay through the nose for expensive medical insurance because of the rip-off priced private system. And I do worry about what would happen to me if I was ever mugged and separated from my credit and insurance cards.

My only first hand experience of the US system was a colleague whose young son born premature at a high altitude needed air evacuation to a specialist intensive treatment unit. He spent about 6 hours arguing with the hospital that his insurance covered this (it did and eventually the transfer was done). They were only concerned about getting paid.

The staff did what they could but it was clear from the outset that the infant needed sophisticated intensive care that was only available at a major centre.

Sometimes I find the US system incomprehensible.

Regards, Martin Brown

Go to the emergency room, if need be. Free care. But that's only very few people. The large figures you hear of not-insured include ~20 million illegal aliens, many of whom _come here_ for the care.

Is our rate high?

The 'leading' countries have previously excluded many deaths that we count. The U.S. includes all births, while certain European and Asian nations exclude premature, low birth weight babies, those with birth defects, stillborns, those who die their first day(s), and generally, babies judged 'non-viable.'

And then we have lifestyle choices. In particular, lots of young, unwed mothers, having hugely greater numbers of high-risk babies: underweight, premature, births to obese moms with diabetes, and so forth.

So, are our infant mortality rates actually high? Are ours higher than yours for non-obese teenage black single moms? (you'd have to count the same way, of course).

You can find most everything you want about us (including a lot of propaganda) here, in this 567 page 6MB .PDF publication, "Health, United States":

Tables 4-25 cover the effect of teen moms, low birthweight, smoking, and so forth.

Why is cancer survival so much worse in the U.K.?

Cheers, James Arthur

On Feb 27, 12:59=A0am, Martin Brown wrote: [....]

There are several causes for the figures being what they are. One of them is that you simply can't trust statistics.

The US has a lot more unhealthy women having children. This is not just from the preventive care troubles. A lot of these women are young and ignorant, some to the point that they don't know what causes babies.

The US does a rather poor job on preventive care but a great job on fixing things once they are broken. Unfortunately for those children some of the problems can't be fixed.

Once you are into an insurance plan, they can't just kick you out. This leads to the problem that people have to do things that don't otherwise make sense to maintain insurance. It is a major drag on people who would otherwise change jobs or perhaps start a new company.

Getting insured once you have a condition means that you need to show that you were insured right up to the date that the new company takes over and be part of some group plan. In that case, the companies don't exclude you.

There is a very good reason to support their health. India has a huge problem with TB because there are many people walking around with it untreated. Even those who are well off are at risk.

The "negotiated rates" crap is the biggest leverage that insurance companies have and biggest reason it is so expensive to go self- insured.

I've been self-employed most of my adult life. Still am. I negotiate almost everything. They charge $50 for a blue plastic water glass, I tell them it's not worth it and we settle for $2. Some years back, a doctor asked me to get an MRI done for my son. While I was in the waiting room, I asked the desk for the names and phone numbers of everyone who would be charging me. I called each, in turn. By the time my son's MRI was done, the price I paid was down to $185. Cut from about $850 (at that time -- I've no idea what they cost now.)

The accounting office managers who support the doctors and their partnerships know me by name. I always call them first before making an appointment to work out "the deal" and what "codes" the doctor's office should use when billing me. A $120 appointment can be had for $40, for example, just for a small effort in asking. So I ask.

Kind of a routine of mine, these days. Don't assume you can't make folks understand your situation just because you are small potatoes. I've found most office managers very receptive and willing to work out deals without too much fuss.

(I also interview before selecting doctors when I have a new need and insist that they do not charge for the interview time. Any who refuse, I never get to see and I don't look back. At least, for less life-threatening situations. I suppose if there were only a few doctors competent for some work, I may find my negotiating position weakened -- so it's lucky for me that I don't have those worries very often, just yet.)

Jon

In article ,=20 snipped-for-privacy@infinitefactors.org says...>=20

If they're sure you will pay, many will work with you. Collections=20 are a huge cost. A friend would pay in advance. Everyone was=20 happy.=20

The problem I've run into here is that none are taking new=20 business. It took my wife, a diabetic, a couple of months to find=20 a doctor who would take any new business. I expect this in spades=20 once Obination Care is mandated. Of course, cash will be outlawed.

=20