OT: Health care in other countries

I was reading a book "My Descent into Death" where the author mentioned, in 1985, being in a hospital in Paris, France. He mentioned the nurses were not authorized to give him painkillers, and the sole doctor in the ER was going home for the weekend.

My nephew today over lunch told me he heard on the radio recently about a French-American woman who had lumps on her breast, and the French doc wouldn't do a thing for her. She had to fly to America to get a proper diagnosis done and surgery performed, all the while suffering from pain.

How is health insurance in Europe and elsewhere?

Not looking for a flame war, just would like to know how it is elsewhere.

Thanks,

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett
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I saw an excellent documentary (Australian ABC or SBS) maybe 6 months back that compared health care systems around the world. Well worth watching if anyone can help with the title? I think it was a US program, hence the need for such a doco :->

Dave.

Reply to
David L. Jones

I found it:

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You can watch it online too.

Dave.

Reply to
David L. Jones

:I was reading a book "My Descent into Death" where the author :mentioned, in 1985, being in a hospital in Paris, France. He :mentioned the nurses were not authorized to give him painkillers, and :the sole doctor in the ER was going home for the weekend. : :My nephew today over lunch told me he heard on the radio recently :about a French-American woman who had lumps on her breast, and the :French doc wouldn't do a thing for her. She had to fly to America to :get a proper diagnosis done and surgery performed, all the while :suffering from pain. : :How is health insurance in Europe and elsewhere? : :Not looking for a flame war, just would like to know how it is :elsewhere. : :Thanks, : :Michael

I find that hearsay evidence difficult to believe. France has had an active breast cancer screening program since the early 90's and women can have a mammography as easily as anywhere else in the western world. Up to 40,000 french women every year have partial or total mastectomy and I am sure that early stage breast cancer would be appropriately treated with radiation and chemo-therapy in cases not requiring radical surgery.

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Reply to
Ross Herbert

I'm similarly sceptical (or, more accurately, reminded of the saying that "the plural of anecdote is not data").

A WHO survey from a few years back put France in first place for overall provision of health care; surveys of life expectancy and infant mortality invariably put France in or around the top ten. E.g.:

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CIA World Factbook = 11th territory, 8th nation UN = 10th

[US = 30th/45th and 38th respectively.]

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CIA = 6th (217th of 222, in decreasing order of infant mortality). UN = 12th (184th of 195, ditto)

[US = 43rd and 33rd respectively.]

Now, there are a whole lot of other factors which can affect life expectancy and infant mortality, aside from healthcare. OTOH, trying to quantify "healthcare" is far from straightforward.

Reply to
Nobody

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Thanks.

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

Infant mortality is a poor metric for comparison, since the different countries calculate it differently. In particular, the U.S. includes all births, while certain European and Asian nations exclude premature, low birth weight babies, those with birth defects, stillborns, and generally, babies judged 'non-viable.'

That impacts our life-expectancy as well--adding in a few zeroes drags down the average.

A much better metric for comparing healthcare quality might cancer survival.

We have more heart disease and more severe, so worse outcomes wouldn't be a surprise there--our patients start sicker.

If you compare groups of Americans that eat and exercise like Europeans, life expectancies are pretty close, if not identical.

Really, most of what kills us is lifestyle-related.

James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

Hmmm...here's some data, but the comparison still isn't clear since the prevalent cancers are somewhat lifestyle related, which might not be comparable country-to-country.

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The bar graphs at the bottom of this page are interesting: money doesn't seem vital:

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James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

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Richard Henry

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Please don't post links that require registration.

Reply to
Richard Henry

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A lot of that cost not anything do to health care and much because=20 we're subsidizing the rest of the world.

Reply to
krw

Thanks for pointing that out. I despise registration.

I originally got there straight from a Google search for "cancer survival europe," then cut-n-pasted the URL. No registration required. But I see that now it asks.

Repeating the search in Google, I can still get the article the same way with no hassle. Search as above, it's about the sixth hit, and the first hit I saw comparing US v. Europe.

"Cancer Survival Rates Improving Across Europe, But Still Lagging Behind United States"

"...Survival was significantly higher in the United States for all solid tumors, except testicular, stomach, and soft-tissue cancer, the authors report. The greatest differences were seen in the major cancer sites: colon and rectum (56.2% in Europe vs

65.5% in the United States), breast (79.0% vs 90.1%), and prostate cancer (77.5% vs 99.3%),..."

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

I am speaking from the UK where, of course, we have a centuries-long rivalry / semi humourous dislike of the French. Nevertheless we respect the French healthcare system as being on a par with our own.

As you know, Britain is often described as "socialist" in the USA. And compared to say Republicans, we are. One feature of this is universal health care. I've heard that about 15% of Americans have no health cover (though an American doctor friend tells me Medicare... or is it Medicaid... will pay for basics but woe betide you if you turn out to have any assets). Anyhow Americans seem to fear sickness much more than us. We have higher taxes, but it's like insurance - for example a few months ago my wife had some heart palpitations. So we went to the Accident & Emergency ward of the nearest hospital - about 10 miles away

- and were seen immediately (no queue, we were lucky I think) by a nurse, a couple of minutes later a doctor, then a bit later by another doctor. They decided blah blah blah, and we left. No charges, minimal paperwork, it's a *right* for British citizens. Next to us an old lady had been taken in by ambulance - she'd been feeling faint, I got the impression she was very poor and hadn't been eating properly for too long, so they were going to keep her in and feed her up for a few days. You don't pay for seeing doctors here. Well you can; you can go private; because the NHS [National Health Service] can't have infinite doctors, so for non-critical stuff you can sometimes find there is a waiting list of a few months for the free hip replacement or whatever. So some people go private for that. Dentists are generally not free (not sure about the details there).

So how much does this compulsory insurance cost? Apparently (source: a book by Tim Harford, "the Undercover Economist") on average, about half what US care costs. The reason is economies of scale. With private health schemes like US ones, the insurers can cherry-pick the members and discourage / balance risky ones with high fees. Also when you get treatment it's not necessarily the best, it's the most cost-effective. Whilst there's an element of that here, the government funds the NHS and they have hundreds of scanners, specialists in obscure fields and so on all over the UK. EVERYONE pays and the NHS cannot turn you away or increase your premium because you are a haemophiliac. If I have an unusual condition, I might have to travel 150 miles to get to a "centre of excellence", but it's free when I get there.

How about other European countries? They're pretty socialist too. France's NHS is at least as good as ours. (They have notoriously high taxes too!) I think Germany's is too. And if I go on holiday in the EU... I take my NHS membership card with me and if I get ill in, say, Spain, I can use their NHS. For free. They bill the UK NHS. Of course, god help you if you fall ill in a low-resource country like Greece, but you'll get the same treatment the locals do.

One of my family went to the USA to work with animals recently. They got a rabies shot before going. It cost £90 (maybe $120?). Apparently it would have cost $1000 in the USA.

If you get ill and have infinite money... then the USA is the best place to be. Best doctors, most advanced equipment, etc. But if you are a normal professional, you'll probably find Europe more, uh, cost-efficient.

Naturally there are local specialisms. France has more specialists, and thus shorter waiting lists, for bone stuff, I think. A lot of people fly to Eastern Europe and get cheap cosmetic surgery there (not sure about the wisdom of that - sometimes it goes wrong and they get it fixed by the British NHS, to the annoyance of the rest of us).

To give you some idea of the cost of all this, the British NHS is meant to be the largest employer in the world after the Chinese Army. (Not sure that's true, but it's the kind of statistic some people quote occasionally.)

[According to Tim Harford, by the way, the most economically efficient / "best" health care system in the world is Singapore's, which uses a combined public / private system. You get core stuff that anyone can fall ill from the public bit. You also get some credit to put towards a private scheme, so if your family has a history of heart trouble you might join a scheme specialising in that.]

Before you all rush over to Europe, remember it's NOT the same culture and little things like assumptions about how, say, car insurance works can trip you up (as happened to a Polish guy I knew - it's all about knowing what questions to ask). Take the way our courts work when you sue someone. It's not particularly connected to healthcare but it illustrates how radically different we can be - but because no one mentions it, few realise the other side of the Pond works differently. In the UK, if I sue you and I lose... I pay YOUR lawyer fees and court costs as well as my own. So even if I have a "no win, no fee" arrangement with my own lawyer, it's likely to bankrupt me if the court case is long and complex. This makes Brits much less likely to frivolously sue you than Americans. We have far fewer lawyers as a result! French courts work completely different to either US or UK courts, being based on an inquisitorial system rather than adversarial - something to do with Napoleon - but I digress.

Hope you enjoyed this little cultural discussion. Now back to the electronics... anyone know whether Live or Neutral hurts more? 8)

--
Nemo
Reply to
Nemo
[snip]

We are taxed minimally compared to Europeons, because you _are_ expected to pay if you have "assets".

Europe operates on the premise that the general population is ignorant and must have all decisions made for it by the politically elite.

This last election proves that the USA has almost caught up to Europe in pure ignorance level ;-(

[snip]

Sounds like you got BS'd. Humans only get a rabies series of shots if bitten by a suspected rabid animal.

[snip]

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

                  Why are Europeons so ignorant?
           They think they know it all about the U.S.A.
                 But never have bothered to visit
Reply to
Jim Thompson

^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Insert obligatory lame 'teeth' joke. ;-)

In Canada if you sue someone and win, but win less than the amount offered as a settlement (typically by a "without prejudice" offer) you could end up paying part or all of the opposing lawyer's fees, and court costs. Probably similar to the UK.

IIRC, one of the US states (Lousiana? uses Napoleonic code).

Depends on which one you're holding with the other hand.

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

In article , To-Email- snipped-for-privacy@My-Web-Site.com says...>=20

=20

=20

...of if you regularly work with animals. My brother had=20 prophylactic rabies shots when he was in college (40 years ago). =20 I'll guarantee you they weren't $1000. Likely more like $10.

Reply to
krw

Yep. I doubt that a round of after-the-fact animal bite rabies treatment doesn't amount to $1000. It's just painful because they inject into the fatty portion of the abdomen :-(

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
With all this hope and change, all you need is a dab of mayonaisse
and you\'ll have a tasty lunch on which you will choke to death.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Yep; "winning" less than you have already been offered isn't normally considered a win.

Reply to
Nobody

=20

got=20

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The treatment of rabies may easily exceed $1000 (there's a lot more=20 to it than a few shots - painful or otherwise), but that wasn't=20 what the Europeon was saying.

Reply to
krw

More objective observers talk about complicated and expensive administration, anti-malpractice insurance and defensive medicine.

I've yet to see any suggestion that the U.S. health care system subsidises the rest of the world - the New England Journal of Medicine reports the results of a lot of medical research that takes place outside the United States of America, funded by non-US sources.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply to
Bill Sloman

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