Microwave brain scrambler?

(...)

I think we agree that one can induce current flow in portions of the brain using direct electrodes, magnetic coupling or induction from an electromagnetic wave. Of the three methods in use, only electromagnetic coupling has any practical potential for use as a security / entertainment tool to disable bad guys or to seriously injure innocent customers and employees. I expect that you understand the reasons why this is so.

I respectfully disagree about microwave's potential as a carrier for the differentiated EMF offset necessary to carry out this sort of manipulation. As it says in the article I quoted, there is a 'window' of power level and modulation rate (~1 mW/cm^2, 6-20 Hz) that swamps out the electrical signals normally present in areas of the brain as part of their normal function. The R.F. carrier appears to integrate an A.C. offset in brain tissue capable of mimicking and replacing valid signals of the type one would normally see presented on an E.E.G.

This is more sophisticated and subtle than mere tissue heating. I find it significant, for example that the associated flow of calcium in the subject tissue actually decreases as power level increases out of the 'window' area of ~1 mW/cm^2 or at modulation frequencies below 6 Hz or above 20 Hz.

Adey, W. Ross, Neurophysiologic Effects of Radiofrequency and Microwave Radiation, Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, V.55, #11, December,

1979

I agree that in Adey's experiments, only 147 MHz and 450 MHz RF were used as a coupling carrier. That supports the theory that carrier frequency itself is unimportant as long as any amplitude offset can be integrated in brain tissue to form a virtual electrode. At the risk of stating the obvious, a parabolic antenna small enough to be concealed above a dropped ceiling would be much more directional and effective with increasing carrier frequency.

Thanks, Bill.

--Winston

I've read quite a few 1960s and 1970s papers on this..

Its NOT a beam a AM signal and get reception thing. Nor will the rumored 6.8 hz microwave pulses knock you over into a delirium. The fields you need to get the effect in 99 percent of the population are down right hazardous. Read the studies of the radar system exposures.. All you get is a soft click, click click... or buzz, at best.. Why? The tissue cannot respond that fast.

The studies were done in a anechonic chamber for both RF and Audio... Why? Because the audio levels were so low, to ensure they were heard, the facility needed to be below normal ambient noise..

The sound is tiny shock waves bouncing off the inside of the skull and microwave heating of the ear tissue. As you turn your head relative to the source, which was usually a YAGI antenna about two feet or less from the test volunteer, the effect diminishes so rapidly as to be useless.

And while these fields will not be any where near enough to kill consumer electronics, they will cause some minor disruptions. The first person with a pacemaker (which are hardened) who has angina (probably from the lousy food, such a place would serve) around this thing would sue you into oblivion.

The antenna required is visibly huge. There is no hiding it, and you'd have to hold it against your target's head.

I'm sure as hell not going to point you to any further explanation because you obviously do NOT have a clue about RF safety,physical effects, or morals..

RANT MODE ACTIVE: GAWD DAMN INTERNET EVERYBODY READS THE BS SUPERWEAPONS CRAP OUT THERE AND THINKS ITS TRUE END RANT MODE:

Steve

If you mean 'reception' in the sense of the target perceiving a sound, I agree. Indeed the subject would temporarily lose the sense of vision and hearing, so no new information can be received at all.

The modulation is closer to ~16 Hz (but on reflection is probably a complex waveform for maximum effect). The target would lose control over muscle movement and lose the ability to see or hear or sense the passage of time. If the carrier is turned off within a second or so, the subject would remain standing. I imagine that the subject would fall to the floor if pushed because of the loss of voluntary muscle control.

Yes, the R.F. field is hazardous immediately and the potential for eventual leukemia, brain infection and DNA damage are increased as well.

Why do you make a point about hazard? I don't understand how that makes any difference at all.

The effect I mentioned is not 'microwave hearing'.

The effect is to temporarily deny a person sight, hearing, conscious thought and muscle control. A bonus is to enhance the target's susceptibility to disease such as cancer, brain infection and DNA damage.

This is not about 'clicking sounds'.

(...)

Consumer electronics are of no concern. The person targeted is of no concern. Nothing but the entertainment of the restaurant manager is of any importance at all.

You do agree, right?

How could that possibly happen?

The megacorporation that owns the restaurant also owns the plaintiff's lawyer and the judge. How could such a lawsuit proceed, considering that there is no evidence, and all parties are owned by the perpetrator.

You are confusing me here. Please explain?

The antenna is a small parabola (ca. 12" or less in diameter). It (and the mechanism needed to steer it) fits very neatly above any dropped ceiling. It would be effective against anyone in the dining area of a typical restaurant. We need only 1 mW/cm^2, after all.

R.F. Safety: I understand that this system would be dangerous to anyone targeted. It would deny them control over their own body, at the minimum.

Physical Effects: It has the potential to seriously harm anyone targeted, perhaps reducing their immune response to serious illness as time passes. It could kill someone easily (if not quickly). I understand that.

I sense that you feel this is somehow improper or wrong in some way?

Morals: I don't understand. What has that got to do with anything? Please elaborate.

It's not a 'super weapon'. Just a little transmitter.

Thanks, Steve.

--Winston

So you're trying to invent the "Date-Rape Wand."

Emitter with a couple watts, built into your walking stick, held behind the heads of victims you approach. Sell 'em on eBay.

(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb a eskimocom

amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

You dont get it! 1 mW/Cm^2 does NOT penetrate the skull with enough power to do biological anything. Period, DENADA!

You must be the new green Xenon/Radium etc

Go away troll, you have NO clue about RF physics.

The effect of which you speak does not exist, or nobody would be painting AM or FM transmitter towers with the power on... Which is done all the time..

Steve

That idea is morally repugnant and inexcusable. :( I'm saddened to think anyone would contemplate that.

I was talking about a tool for use by an organization that is incapable of any sort of immorality or crime, because they would never be accused, no matter who they attacked.

I don't own any judges. Let's try to stay on the same page here. :)

--Winston

As long as the workers doesn't mind the effects on themselves. Such toys invariable nail the owner more than any would be thief.

After you discover that the robber is actually a friend of the cashier and joking around and you lay him on the ground, make plans to sell off the business to pay legal costs and to spend a nice amount of time in jail.

Put a revolver under the register if you have such a problem with robbery.

Yup. The OP ought to dig back through the archives, and read up on some of the cases where property owners have created dangerous or lethal "man-traps" to deter burglary or vandalism.

Sometimes these end up killing innocent people... and the property owners face manslaughter charges and massive civil lawsuits for wrongful death from the families of those killed.

Sometimes these end up killing or injuring burglars and vandals... and the property owners go to prison for manslaughter, and also end up being sued by the burglars or their families.

In most jurisdications, it is *not* legally permissible to use deadly or potentially-deadly force merely to protect property.

Equivalently-bad scenario: there *is* an armed robber, the manager zaps him with hidden the "microwave convulsion beam", the robber collapses... and the beam also hits a diner or two at the next table, and *they* collapse or go blind or go into convulsions. Having two or more people (one robber plus N innocents) affected in the same way, at the same time, is going to clue *somebody* off to the fact that something weird is going on!

The OP seems to be taking the position that "This isn't a crime, because it won't be detected and the person the zapping can't be accused." A parabolic or wave-guide microwave antenna of sufficiently narrow beam-width to do this is *not* small or all that easily concealed, especially if it's on some sort of pivot-able mounting and is located somewhere which gives adequate coverage of a room. When the police tape off the whole area as a crime scene, they'll almost certainly find it... at which point, the manager will be in Very Deep Trouble. Assault and battery, attempted murder, and illegal use of an unlicensed transmitting device.

Or a Taser, or pepper spray.

In all of these cases, though, the chances of somebody ending up dead are probably quite a bit less if nobody tries to play cowboy.

--
Dave Platt                                    AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page:  http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

(...)

How could that be? Who is the 'nailer'?

Are you seriously suggesting that a lawyer or judge would voluntarily snuff out their career by prosecuting a case against their owners?

Nonsense.

But this is *so* much more elegant! Not only can the manager disable robbers, he can use the system on honest employees and customers as well. The entertainment is endless because it is completely undetectable.

The old guy on table #4. Just as he lifts his coffee cup, zap him and he pours hot coffee all over his shirt! He gets up, and attempts to get to the bathroom, zap him again so he hits his head on the counter and soils himself at the same time.

I don't think you grasp the hilarious possibilities here.

There isn't any evidence it was ever used, other than the recollection of the victim. Who is going to believe him (or her for that matter)?

I don't understand your 'anti-business' position at all.

Thanks, AZ

--Winston

Doesn't matter. Invariably it is the owner or employees injured for the simple matter that most of the time there isn't a burgler in presence of the infernal machine. Rat chews through a control line and sets the thing off. Drunk employee goes into the manager's office and plays around. Owner mistakes friend of cashier.

It doesn't matter. If you put a shotgun in the ceiling on remote control, you're playing a very dangerous game.

Only the owner and installer are aware the transmitter exists at all. They aren't about to zap themselves with it.

So, who cares? In either case, there is no evidence, no foul no crime.

There would be no crime because no judge would ever prosecute.

He places judgment against say, "Allied Domestic Sandwich", he knows it's all over for him. Finito. No more robes. Venality is not stupidity.

Be serious. This machine is completely undetectable. Anyone who knows of it's existence will remain piously quiet about it. That is what they are paid to do.

This country was built by people who believed in the sanctity and grace of big business. Let's not backslide here.

Thanks, AZ

--Winston

You're insane.

(...)

1) The transmitter is not immediately deadly. Eventually, perhaps. By then, there's even less evidence that it was ever used. 2) I was not talking about individuals or small business owners for whom the law applies and is generally enforced. I was talking about a completely different business scale, for whom the law does not apply and is not enforced. Two completely different situations.

See section #2 above. The transmitter wouldn't be used by people who are subject to law. Only subsidiaries of Big Business for whom there is no risk of prosecution attached.

No evidence, no crime perpetrated by an un-prosecutable.

That is a bad corner to be playing in.

"Sorry, thanks for the info but you are deluded to think we would ever do such a thing."

Attempted murder is permissible and a valid management technique, if you are a large enough corporation. It just does not get investigated.

It is not considered to be as serious as your parking ticket.

No, the robber would only 'collapse' if he was off - balance when zapped. He would remain standing otherwise. Blind and deaf, with a vacant expression on his face, but still standing.

No collapses. Just frozen with temporary blindness and deafness. See, we are overwhelming a very complicated system with a bunch of 'nonsense data'. It is a 'Denial Of Service' attack, with the brain as a target instead of a computer.

Yes but a powerless 'somebody'. Who cares? The cops? The courts?

Seriously. No authority is going to give a flying guacamole even if a witness were brave enough to risk being called 'delusional'.

(I do admit that it's a matter of time before a technically hip LEO gets zapped by one of these transmitters. Then we will see some very nuanced criticism, which will also not be detected, prosecuted or reported.)

In application, yes. The crime didn't occur unless a judge said it did, yes? Hey, 'suspect' all you want because the judge will say *anything* the corporation wants him to say. I do admit that this gives the courts pretty good leverage. The bad news is that such leverage will result in more generous contributions, but not an improvement in behavior on the part of the corporation.

Of course it would be small and easy to hide. Pick a frequency that beams well using a

(...)

Innocence is expensive, AZ

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

--Winston

That is 1 mW/cm^2 within the brain. Obviously there are efficiency losses on the way from MOPA to the target, but yes, there is a reproducible physiological effect.

Nope.

The reason I asked was to get new knowledge, for which I am grateful.

The effect exists.

The minimum frequency for which the effect is seen was at 147 MHz, amplitude modulated at a continuous 16 Hz, not frequency modulated at 20Hz - 20 KHz or amplitude modulated at 50Hz ~12KHz.

Thanks for your thoughts, Steve.

--Winston

(...)

Dish is concealed above the suspended ceiling, for example. There is no evidence it exists. (Did I mention that?)

No, the lawyer for the perp has no idea the transmitter exists. He has a crack head insisting that he was dazed for a moment, as if that were an unusual occurrence. :)

The lawyer for the perp is more than fully occupied.

Yes. But the money goes to campaign contributions, not the perp's lawyer and certainly not the perp.

--Winston

And this is in the same world where McDonalds gets sued by a customer who spills hot coffee on herself?

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

And it is secretly manufactured and secretly installed and nobody knows its there except the BigMac employees, who are, of course, utterly loyal and would never rat out their beloved management.

And the manager can tell who's the crackhead just by looking eh? Of course, it would never be used on a customer who's just pissed at the poor service. Remember, it would only take one mistake.

Lawyers are *never* fully occupied - that's why there are so many of them.

Tell that to those who have sued such businesses on ludicrously trivial grounds, and won.

"Liebeck's attorneys argued that McDonald's coffee was "defective", claiming that it was too hot and more likely to cause serious injury than coffee served at any other place. Moreover, McDonald's had refused several prior opportunities to settle for less than the $640,000 ultimately awarded."

Of course, maybe you can sell this device to big restaurant chains in Uzbekistan where political prisoners get boiled alive. No biggie there...

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

(...)

A few key employees, yes.

Talking about that would be a career ender. Not just a job ender. Loyalty is not as strong a motivator as fear. Besides, who would listen to a disgruntled employee talk about their wild fantasy? :)

In our scenario, the crackhead was the one swinging the gun around and demanding money. Yes, I think the manager could pick him out.

It'll be used on customers who are respectful, optimistic good tippers. It'll be used on folks behind the counter. Everybody except the manager will get a dose. It's a very egalitarian design.

Tell that to the public defender assigned to our pistol waving perp.

(...)

Hot coffee is evidence. Photographs of burned skin are evidence. The transmitter will leave no evidence. No evidence, no crime.

No need. There is a huge market here in the U.S.

Thank you for your thoughts, Dirk.

--Winston