I really believe this is happening...
New College Graduates (aka NCG's) seem to have no imagination whatsoever, with boring personalities to match. ...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et |
Mostly nonsense. The first paragraph is silly. Actually, most of that is silly.
Machinists who use nc mills do cool, and challenging stuff. I once wrote a couple of n/c compilers, essentially inventing a very dumb programming language for mills and metal punch presses. A couple months later, I was astonished by the elegant constructs that the machinists were able to make within my dumb language.
My machinist guy does cool SolidWorks 3D models and then turns them into metal and plastic on our Tormach. That's better than cranking handwheels on a Bridgeport for the rest of one's working life. [1]
Sure, word processors have eliminated typists, but computers don't have ideas or create useful content.
Automated health records are fabulous. My doctor doesn't need a chart folder to be transported across town before she sees me. She can see my history, test results, MRI images taken yesterday or 5 years ago, everything. If I do encounter a doctor who stares at the screen and doesn't talk to me, I get another doctor.
Spice and PCB software and such (even Word!) have sure improved my life.
Remember when photography was such a hassle? Big drafted paper drawings on the shop floor? Now we use pics on screens as assembly drawings. Better all around.
I have two new engineers, 22 and 28 years old, and they are good and getting better fast. There are good kids out there. The proportion of good EE grads is falling mostly because so many more people are going to engineering school these days. We have decades of experience, which mostly helps, and they don't.
[1] We used to avoid machined parts like some dread disease. We don't any more. 3D computer design and affordable n/c changed that.-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers
On a sunny day (Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson wrote in :
I wonder what it is sucking with that straw, oil?
I think that is an unrelated issue. What I sense (hear, see) in youngsters is an almost obsession with "making money"... not "greed" but, rather, "How am I going to pay off this huge debt I incurred at RinkyDink Polytechnic?" Even before choosing a school, they seem to be picking careers NOT out of a fondness for the work but, instead, for how it will "provide" for them.
"How quickly can I get from A to B?" instead of "Gee, I wonder what I'll find interesting on the journey?"
They seem more intent on minimizing inconvenience/hassle than on truly enjoying (or, at the very least, not DREADING!) what they are setting out to pursue for a lifetime!
Whether the personalities (boring) drive the choices or the choices drive the personalities is up for debate. I've met as many boring engineers as I have *accountants*!
I didn't have time to read the WSJ article, so I fed it to my computerized document analysis program, which analyzed the content as incompatible with my pre-conceived ideas, ideologies, and agendas. It also produced an easily digestible summary which classifies the article as improbable and reactionary. That fits nicely with my belief that technical progress should not be obstructed by hindsight. Also that education will not produce smarter (i.e. less dumb) individuals with a higher IQ. No need for me to read or think, when my computer program can do it for me.
Recent college graduates are fully qualified to memorize some books and pass exams, but little else. Doing more requires some real world experience, usually not available in most colleges. If you seriously expect more from recent college graduates, I suggest you discuss the problem with the various accreditation committees, which insist on general and liberal education classes, instead of lab, experimental, and work experience. Most imaginative solutions are based on a prior experience done differently. Without that prior experience, there is little to imagine.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
I didn't have time to read the WSJ article, so I fed it to my computerized document analysis program, which analyzed the content as incompatible with my pre-conceived ideas, ideologies, and agendas. It also produced an easily digestible summary which classifies the article as improbable and reactionary. That fits nicely with my belief that technical progress should not be obstructed by hindsight. Also that education will not produce smarter (i.e. less dumb) individuals with a higher IQ. No need for me to read or think, when my computer program can do it for me.
Recent college graduates are fully qualified to memorize some books and pass exams, but little else. Doing more requires some real world experience, usually not available in most colleges. If you seriously expect more from recent college graduates, I suggest you discuss the problem with the various accreditation committees, which insist on general and liberal education classes, instead of lab, experimental, and work experience. Most imaginative solutions are based on a prior experience done differently. Without that prior experience, there is little to imagine.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Bah, humbug! That article totally ignores the theory that there is only a finite amount of total intelligence available on this planet. As the population increases each individual gets a smaller share. In 3 more generations there will be nothing left but idiots who can't tie their shoelaces without an app. Art
On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:26:47 -0700, Jim Thompson Gave us:
Half of any education in certain fields is all about using and understanding the tools and making useable information from any data collected. 'Information' is processed raw data. If the data isn't processed, it isn't information yet.
But yeah... mindless dweebs. They spend more time with their faces in their phones than anything else and that part of 'modern computing' really is sad.
ROTFLMAO >:-} ...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et |
Ah, you need to update that app! They've redesigned the knowledgebase that they use to arrive at conclusions. Fed the same article, the new version comes up with "43"!
Actually, the situation is much worse than that -- withthe push for colleges to "certify" that their graudates get *jobs* that indicate the cost of the education has "paid off". So, more of the "teach to the test" mentality -- the "test" being "whatever employers want TODAY!"
They'll, perhaps, revise this metric to also include "marketability after 1, 5, 10, etc. years to demonstrate to potential students (aka "loan targets") the viability of that education.
Of course, many of these shops change names, go out of business, etc. when the shopping mall that they operate out of finds a *real* "paying customer" for that space! :-/
While I had my fair share of labs in school, I'm not sure they yield the results you think. In fact, one of my early employers once confided that "if I need someone TODAY, I'll hire someone from ; if I need someone for TOMORROW, I'll hire *you*!"
I.e., some schools teach how to *do*; others teach how to *learn*. The attitude that you instill in the student is largely, IMO, a result of this.
(e.g., I recall asking professor in an abstract algebra class about the number of DIFFERENT tic-tac-toe games possible -- considering reflections, rotations, etc. as yielding equivalent variations on a single play. His response: "I don't know. Why don't you look into it and let me know what you find, next class?" Today, the common answer would be something along the lines of "google it")
Lack of experience with short-term human interface is common with software and automation designers. Never mind longer term effects.
Even those professions associated with increased experience seem unable to consider these effects responsibly, so I don't think you can blame just one influence on something as vague and widespread as your personal impression of 'dumbing down'.
RL
I don't think it's just our automaton society... the education system SUCKS... producing graduates who can pass the exam, but can't think of any extension beyond the raw data... they can't _think_, period! ...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et |
This is not a new phenomenon.
40 years ago, when I was doing college recruiting for engineers, you'd see kids with a 4.0 GPA and skill solving equations, but not even a tiny clue about what to use 'em on. No creative ability. No ability to associate or extrapolate. Can't even bias a transistor. Impressive-looking senior project, but couldn't answer the simplest questions about what was really going on.You don't get it if they don't teach it. And if the teachers don't have it...
Exactly the same thing happens in industry with the stupid manager mentoring more stupid engineers and managers.
It's a rare occasion when a gifted student has a gifted teacher and works for a gifted mentor.
It's the circle of life... or is it the spiral of death.
Mathy/sciency types are often not people-people, and often have poor language skills. That's how our brains are wired.
I had a terrible time trying to learn French, and a lot of the social science/English lit/art concepts were, and still are, meaningless to me.
Most (good) engineers are somewhere along the autism spectrum. It's sort of a job requirement.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers
Perfect argument for patricide -- act quickly!!!
The problem is simple, too many of them are trying to be the chief, when the majority of them have an interest and attribute to be Indians.
Jamie
This explains the rising number of Liberal fools.
-- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
40 years ago I was trying to teach EE students real world Electronics. They could give me 50 reasons why something wasn't designed for optimum performance, but they couldn't troubleshoot a five tube table radio or a common car radio design. I had one idiot ranting that they should use 1% resistors in the audio stages of a walkie talkie. It's amazing the number of students who had never heard of anything higher than 5% resistors, and the concept of 50% tolerance had them foaming at the mouth. They were freaking that electrolytics were
-20/+80% tolerance, as well.
-- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
Finally someone said it. I'll never forget the labful of students where only 2 of us had a clue where to start when asked to build a radio receiver. The rest looked like rabbits in headlights. I was doing that stuff at 9.
Middle & old aged people tend to do this, look at things through a distorted perspective. The good news is just as some of us made good engineers, some of them will too.
Re personality & creativity, dont be too harsh, its a lot easier to do those when you know your subject. Far harder at 23 when you dont and fear criticism from a more senior engineer.
NT
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