737 problem explained

Yes, plus a "commercial imperative" problem.

AoA is used to indicate how close to stalling the aircraft is. The artificial horizon indicate the attitude.

When learning to fly I was repeatedly told that you can stall an aircraft at any speed and attitude. Experiencing that is interesting and *fun*.

I've been in aircraft (not airliners) that have experienced just that. It is exhilarating.

arliner-launch/

d coding

the requirements

pointed that

rplane on the

rs are

, when

ite

ecomes a problem with poorly trained foreign pilots with insufficient aptit ude for flying complex systems.

als.

le

The American pilots who experienced this same phenomenon stated all they h ad to do was shut the friggin MCAS off and fly manually.

% on every auxiliary flight control possible, and can barely fly the aircra ft manually, kind of like a blind person driving a self-driving car.

is actually wrong about everything:

bs corrupted by FAA and NTSB bureaucracy.

took control of the plane themselves. Obviously none of these flights crash ed."

ican pilots, not even close. And failure to recognize this fact....never mi nd... backwater mindless people like you aren't worth the time it takes to finish a sentence.

I don't see one report there that was remotely an MCAS problem. Your attac ks on the foreign pilots as well as anyone who doesn't agree with you is un justified.

--

  Rick C. 

  -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

arliner-launch/

d coding

the requirements

pointed that

rplane on the

rs are

, when

ite

ecomes a problem with poorly trained foreign pilots with insufficient aptit ude for flying complex systems.

als.

le

The American pilots who experienced this same phenomenon stated all they h ad to do was shut the friggin MCAS off and fly manually.

% on every auxiliary flight control possible, and can barely fly the aircra ft manually, kind of like a blind person driving a self-driving car.

is actually wrong about everything:

bs corrupted by FAA and NTSB bureaucracy.

took c "The first four reports involve the aspect of the 737 Max software most in the news: its MCAS program that automatically lowers the nose of the plane, even if the pilot does not want the plane to descend. In these cases, it i s worth noting, these U.S.-carrier pilots disabled or overrode automated sy stems and took control of the plane themselves. Obviously none of these fli ghts crashed."

So, we have four incidents to look at. The problem is that none of the fou r are actually attributed to MCAS by the pilots reporting an anomaly and one of the four isn't an incident at all. Let's deal with that one first. It's just a pilot correctly complaining that MCAS isn't adequately addresse d in training manuals. The other three all report a very brief, one time nose down just after the autopilot was engaged and disengaging the AP stopped it. That is not indicative of MCAS. MCAS cannot be disabled by just turning the AP off! If MCAS was reacting to a bad sensor or similar and was trying to do trim down, it would have continued with the AP off. MCAS is not part of the AP, it's deeper in the plane controls and the only way to disable it is to turn off the electric trim using the cutoff switches. Note that none of the above pilots did that.

ican pilots, not even close. And failure to recognize this fact....never mi nd... backwater mindless people like you aren't worth the time it takes to finish a sentence.

This from the guy who can't read an Atlantic article and get it right. And again, the Ethiopian crew DID follow the correct procedure, the exact procedure that Boeing specified after the Lion Air crash. That was to do what I cited above, treat it for what it is, a runaway trim condition, use the cutoff switches to stop the electric trim motors, then trim manually. The first officer identified it, hit the cutoff switches and then tried to trim manually. Some of his last words were that he can't trim it. Why? Like I said previously, Boeing recognized back with the first 737s in the 60s that with enough trim and speed, it can be IMPOSSIBLE to move the trim wheels by hand. They had a procedure for dealing with that, but over the years, it was deleted from the documentation. It also would not have save the Ethiopian flight, they did not have sufficient altitude to execute it.

e:

starliner-launch/

bad coding

at the requirements

at pointed that

airplane on the

sors are

ld, when

write

becomes a problem with poorly trained foreign pilots with insufficient apt itude for flying complex systems.

le

ad

e

ng

, n

ut

nuals.

ou

mple

y. The American pilots who experienced this same phenomenon stated all they had to do was shut the friggin MCAS off and fly manually.

ws

00% on every auxiliary flight control possible, and can barely fly the airc raft manually, kind of like a blind person driving a self-driving car. s

t is actually wrong about everything:

al bs corrupted by FAA and NTSB bureaucracy.

d took control of the plane themselves. Obviously none of these flights cra shed."

erican pilots, not even close. And failure to recognize this fact....never mind... backwater mindless people like you aren't worth the time it takes t o finish a sentence.

acks on the foreign pilots as well as anyone who doesn't agree with you is unjustified.

+1

And I previously made the same comment about blaming foreign pilots, when we don't have an NTSB report yet or even know what training they had or did not have. We do know that MCAS malfunctioned on 3 flights, two at Lion Air, one in Ethiopia. With LA, the flight preceeding the crash, the two pilots flying had it happen, were trying to figure out what was going on and the pilot in the jump seat that happened to be catching a ride, told them what to do, ie cut off the electric trim, trim manually. They did it and the plane flew on. The next flight, same thing happened, they could not figure it out, they crashed. Ethiopia, the young co-pilot with just a few hundred hours experience, he correctly identified what was happening, hit the cutoff switches and tried to trim manually. He was unable to move the trim wheels, because they plane was trimmed too hard and going too fast. It's not clear to me that US pilots could have done significantly better.

r-launch/

ng

equirements

ed that

on the

John Larkin wouldn't code a system he didn't think he understood, and he wo uldn't write code that he realised endangered people.

Of course he endorses climate change denial - which means he doesn't unders tand the scientific part of the evidence that says the anthropogenic global warming has been visible above the noise level for a few decades now - and he hasn't noticed that the consequent increase in extreme weather events i s already killing people.

Ignorance isn't actually a legal defense.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

iner-laun

ding

requirements

nted that

ne on the

re

n

mmers did

s as

tware

re process as it related to MCAS was quite informal to put it mildly.

s how they ended up with 2.5o trim capabiity.

It was not a software coding problem. The software did not misbehave, it performed as it was designed to perform. It's the aero engineers who are supposed to understand how the plane flies that presumably came up with MCAS and decided how it should operate. It's not clear software writers would understand the consequences of MCAS running amok from a bad sensor. They might have assumed a pilot can just easily override it with the controls, that it's no big deal.

One thing I think people writing the code might have noticed was there was no basic check on whether the AOA sensors were in the expected, normal low angle of attack range while the plane was on the ground.

My suspicion is that there are far more serious and deeper problems at Boeing that remain.

launch/

uirements

that

n the

But a hard nose down is exactly what is needed and what MCAS is supposed to do is at high AOA and in danger of stalling.

Actually, the plane will fly until it runs out of fuel, if you just keep counteracting the MCAS nose down with the trim up button on the contro ls. The Lion Air flight that crashed flew for about 6 minutes like that, with the pilot doing exactly that. Then he handed control to the co-pilot. MCAS came on again, the co-pilot only provided a minimal attempt at correction and then nothing more as the plane headed to the ground. Why he did that, we'll probably never know.

My mistake, make that McDonnell Douglas.

I've seen enough to conclude that Mullenberg isn't competent. He still has never explained how the hell this could happen at Boeing, hasn't said they have a major review of ALL airplane programs to make sure whatever went wrong here hasn't also happened in other programs, hasn't explained any new procedures, etc to prevent it from happening again. All I have heard is an "oops, sorry". And now their spacecraft just screwed up too.

After Intel had their floating point crisis, Andy Grove said something to the effect of things like that kill bad companies, mediocre ones survive it, great companies are improved by it. So far I see no sign that Boeing is in the last category.

We lost a stealth bomber on takeoff because it had water in the attitude sensor. When you have a gyro that can sense attitude and maybe other sensors too, why in the world would a computer be programmed to consider only one?

The business model of launching a new huge-budget clean-sheet plane every 25 years became untenable in the early 21st century. They should have seen it coming and started re-orienting ahead-of-time.

Instead they were left flailing at the last minute for a new product for the market and thought because they were Boeing, with Boeing's reputation, they could half-ass an "improved" design and it would work out ok. planes don't fly on reputation.

the MAX I think might be summarized as "Better is the enemy of good" as IIRC a NASA lead engineer kept on a placard on his desk.

What I heard from a boeing worker (true or not) was that the foreign plane owners did not opt to give the pilots the available extra training on these 737 Max's. If true, that may have made a difference.

But if the gyro says you're level, and the AoA says you're moving at a downward angle relative to the air, then you also have altitude to tell you something is wrong.

snipped-for-privacy@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I told you all this months ago. And you and the retard crew said I was wrong.

rote:

ng-starliner-launch/

ot bad coding

that the requirements

that pointed that

he airplane on the

sensors are

told, when

't write

nly becomes a problem with poorly trained foreign pilots with insufficient aptitude for flying complex systems.

ve

angle

stead

t,

the

re

being

eps,

tly

t t

down

he

t out

ily

h

manuals.

s you

Simple

rtly. The American pilots who experienced this same phenomenon stated all t hey had to do was shut the friggin MCAS off and fly manually.

shows

y 100% on every auxiliary flight control possible, and can barely fly the a ircraft manually, kind of like a blind person driving a self-driving car.

lots

but is actually wrong about everything:

total bs corrupted by FAA and NTSB bureaucracy.

and took control of the plane themselves. Obviously none of these flights crashed."

American pilots, not even close. And failure to recognize this fact....nev er mind... backwater mindless people like you aren't worth the time it take s to finish a sentence.

attacks on the foreign pilots as well as anyone who doesn't agree with you is unjustified.

Really? There's insufficient training and then there is the good stuff??? WTF???

--

  Rick C. 

  -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

You're Always Wrong.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

Come now, do you really expect me to do coordinate substitution in my head while strapped to a centrifuge? No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die.

And die they did.

--

  Rick C. 

  +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I get an offensive overlay preventing reading; sez i have been using private mode. NOPE; standard, normal mode. So that link and any others to WP articles are not useful.

That is such a bizarre reply. You say something he claimed some time ago and you tell him he is wrong for agreeing with you.

Yes, strange.

--

  Rick C. 

  ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209