Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.

I'll need to get back to you on that, though I'll have to read some more legislation, and since I'm not a qualified lawyer, I may not be permitted to do that.

That's news to me.

Or something? Since deciding that I had to buy

No, that still seems to be the case.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else
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These laws are contrived by insurance companies so they can weasel out of paying every time.

Just think how many house fires are caused by people trying to by-pass electricity meters, especially these days.

Is it true that if one rotates a water meter 180 degrees, and it runs backwards, then the council pays YOU?

Reply to
Peter Jason

Because of the word "directions". There has to be a particular relationship for the supervisor to give directions. It does not apply if the supervisor is paid by the person being supervised.

The conduct that would be prohibited would be that of a contrived relationship where the supervisor was a Clayton's supervisor.

Doctors often tell people what they should do, which is giving advice. People are always completely free to ignore that advice. In the context of section 14, the "directions" being given are not just advice which the person being directed can ignore.

Reply to
Epsilon

This is appalling negativism!

Reply to
Peter Jason

It is completely true, but only when you are pushing the water from your premises.

Reply to
Epsilon

I wouldn't have thought that would lead to fires. No doubt it leads to suddenly dead would-be power thieves, but in general, the attempted bypass will either work, be completely ineffective, or will blow the main fuse, depending on the particular incompetence of the perpetrator. Also, the meter is usually in a metal box outside the house.

I don't know whether it would run backwards - it would depend on the exact mechanism. But if it does, I wouldn't expect any payment to be forthcoming, and sooner or later the billing anomaly would be flagged. In the event that the billing system did issue payments (presumably considered refunds), eventually the supplier would cotton on, and they'd certainly ask for all the money back.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

If you both reverse the meter, and push water from your premises, then the water supplier will charge you for the privilege. To get the meter to run backwards, if it's capable of it, you have to do one or the other, not both.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

For in-home dope farming? Or, just to run heaters in winter?

I'm never game to do anything that can be that easily found out, and bypassing the meter has to be done carefully, 'cos the power company knows how much is going into a street, long term usage for each property, and it doesn't take long to check with a clampmeter on a pole where the power's going.

So one would need to carefully slice a percentage off their usage, and never stop that meter dial from turning. Plus not 'polish' (clean) the insides of the meter box, meter readers would expect spider's webs in there?

Possibly more fun will be had with the new smart meters, we (Vic) getting them within next four years, but they already upped the power bill heaps to pay for the rollout.

Be interesting to see how power usage changes, if ones knows what the current going rate is at any time.

Grant.

Reply to
Grant

Nope, they just assume that you have left a tap running and that the meter has looped and bill you for the lot.

Reply to
terryc

That would be fraud. The water supplier is not supplying water at all.

The meter doesn't work backwards like that. If it did, it would only reduce the metered amount of water being supplied by the water supplier, but not provide a way to calculate the water being supplied to the water supplier.

Reply to
Epsilon

It was some years after I'd moved into my current property that I noticed that the allegedly night-time tariff water heater was drawing power during the day. Like a good citizen, I called Energy Australia, and they came and undid what the previous owner had presumably done.

Clearly, Energy Australia hadn't noticed when the original switch was made, and either no meter reader had happened to come when the heater was running, or they were oblivious to the implications of that turning wheel.

After doing the right thing, of course, I found that the tank wasn't big enough to provide hot water during the day, and that we needed to be on a more expensive tariff :( Energy Australia indicated that they'd get around to it in a couple of weeks or so (given that it required a new switch to be installed). However, after I'd protested to someone more senior that I'd done right by them and they could at least reciprocate, it was fixed in a couple of days.

I'm not looking forward to it. At one point I considered asking for one to be installed, but after running the numbers, it was clear that my electricity bill would rise quite a lot. The peak-time rate here in Sydney is so high that power drawn 24/7 (computers, refrigerator), which is the cheapest to supply, costs significantly more despite the lower off-peak rate. So I'll wait until a new meter is imposed on me.

Those who are financially stressed will no doubt change their usage pattern. The rest may change for a while, but will probably slip back to their current pattern in due course.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

They wouldn't be entitled to the money, but it wouldn't be fraud, because there would clearly be no intent. Be interesting to see the perp trying to sue to get it back.

If it's not capable of running backwards (but still allows water through

- it may well contain a non-return value), then reversing it would result in the reading not changing when water is drawn, but the reading would increase when water was pushed, so it would correctly indicate the amount of water pushed (though the supplier would charge for it on the assumption that it had been supplied). However, presumably the person doing this would not be intending to push water to the supplier anyway, so their water bill would drop to zero until someone noticed.

Of course, if it contains a non-return valve, then the perpetrator would discover they've gone to a lot of unlawful trouble for no benefit, and serve them right.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

I thought this was implausible, so in the spirit of scientific endeavour, I took a look at my meter and did some measurements. Turns out that if I leave a tap running fully open, it will loop the meter in about 100 days, which is uncomfortably close to the meter reading cycle. This suggests that a simple meter reading error can lead to disputes later on about whether the water was actually consumed. An extra digit on the meter would have resolved that.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

You have been watching too many US police shows - "perpetrator"?

Reply to
Epsilon

What else do you expect me to do in the evening?

Sheesh!

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

And more...

First some definitions in the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act, which are imported into the Home Building Act.

--
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/esa2004309/s3.html#electrical_installation

"electrical installation" means any fixed appliances, wires, fittings, 
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Sylvia Else

There lies the problem and the illusion of smart meters. If you have no discretionary electrical items that you can turn off, ten there are n savings under smart meters, just higher bills.

So, people will go without air conditioning in peak summer demand time on very hot days?

How? Apart from dieing off?

Reply to
terryc

If you were going to cheat it would better to make a connection underground to the mains side And take half your water usage off that, or make a bypass circuit that allows some water through meter and some not.

Reply to
F Murtz

Only if they're stupid or extremely hard up. Airconditioners will be expensive to run in terms of cents per hour, but very hot days are not that common, so the total amount doesn't come to much.

There are some things, such as running clothes driers at different times (mine often runs during peak period). Ditto doing the ironing. Cook dinner later if an electric cooker is used. Run the fridge colder, and turn it off between 2pm and 8pm, minimise opening it during that time. Ditto freezers (but do people who are financially stressed have freezers? I don't even have one).

Those who have instant electric hot water can change when they use it.

These are a nuisance, of course, which is why people who can afford to will revert to the usage pattern than suits them.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

Yes, this is called a shunt. I believe some unscrupulous thieves have done this the past. For electricity & gas too.

Reply to
Peter Jason

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