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Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On 12/11/2016 4:18 AM, Vic Smith wrote:

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Just anecdotal evidence, but brake line replacement seems to be much  
more common in the past 15 or so years.  I had the lines of my 5 year  
old Buick corrode.  I know others that had to replace them on 5 to 8  
year old cars.

Either new snow removal materials are being used or the lines are  
thinner, or both.  This suppoerts it
http://www.wfsb.com/story/23874231/mechanics-blame-winter-road-treatment-for-damage-to-cars

Connecticut auto mechanics told the I-Team they are concerned over a  
recent rash of rust and they blamed the need for so many rust-related  
repairs on the way cities and towns in the state treat the roads during  
winter storms.

The I-Team heard it at the Vernon Collision Center where they said,  
"everything just seems to rust. Five or six years ago, we didn't do  
nearly as many brake lines as we're doing now."

It was the same story at the Canton Gulf, where the I-Team heard, "I've  
been here 35 years and in the last three or four years we've done more  
brake lines than I have in the first 30 years."


Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Vic Smith actually said:

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We're delving off topic, but if you live in a wet or dusty clime, your
brake fluid will "suck up" water and dust, which, on a 10-mile long
mountain pass, might make a difference in not so good a way.

Even if it doesn't, the alcohol in the fluid will slowly erode your gaskets
in your master cylinder (and slave cylinder if you have a hydraulic
clutch).  

It will likely still work all dusty, wet, and black; but it won't work as
well if you live in the mountains.  

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
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And... on a Japanese car you can get away with that and not have any issues.
Some of them don't even list the brake fluid on the maintenance schedule.

Unfortunately you _cannot_ get away with that on the BMW.  It is NOT forgiving
about maintenance.
--scott

--  
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 17:58:43 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

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Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always
spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column
of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either :-) .

Can you help :-) ? Cheers, -- tlvp
--  
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
tlvp wrote:

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Smartphones contain 3-axis accelerometer chips and magnetic compass  
chips, but AFAIK (unlike digital levels) they don't contain an  
inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be  
high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a  
joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby.

The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6  
minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for  
other angles, so even they would be marginal.


Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Andy Burns actually said:

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Thank you Andy for staying on topic and helping to increase the tribal
knowledge here with respect to the accuracy that a smartphone has for
measuring angles.

Apparently a smartphone accelerometer is used for measuring angles, which
fits a camber measurement application, but for the life of me, I don't see
how a smarphone accelerometer can fit a toe-angle application.  

Can you?

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Thanks for explaining that the accuracy of the MEMS inclinometer in digital
levels is six to twelve minutes.  

This Home Depot blurb says a common 10-inch Husky is "Accurate to 1/10 of a
degree", which is in the range you stated.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
tlvp actually said:

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I think you (yet again) completely missed the point.

The math for single-wheel toe is trivial which even you seem to understand.
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif

However, I said I was confused about total toe.

The toe in the front of a wheel/tire combination is the same in degrees as
the toe at the rear of that same wheel/tire combination (and, in fact, no
matter what size the wheel/tire combaination, the toe is the same degrees
of angle).

Yet, total toe is merely the difference in toe from the rear of the
wheel/tire to the front.

And total toe is specified in degrees.
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 17:00:41 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon

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 The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over
7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app.. The "rigid" level
application on my Blackberry PlayBook is very accurate - How you
reference it to the wheel will be the biggest variable that can
through your accuracy off.  A trammel type setup made from a straight
bar of metal (or "straight" hardwood) with 2 screws protruding to
reach the edge of the rim, adjusted to be identical in protrusion,
will transfer the wheel angle accurately to the "level". You can
determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with
the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the
reading is the same with the wheel turned.
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 WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of
accuracy. To get the camber  "normalized" you need to roll the car
back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension. A
professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide
in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the
car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension.
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I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to
verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central
Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot.
I've also done hundreds of alignments with "pro" equipment.
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Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca actually said:

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This is the first indication of what's possible out of a mobile device in
this thread, so I thank you for figuring out that your level app has an
accuracy of plus or minus 7 degrees (if I understood you correctly).

How did you find that out though?

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I agree that the jig attached to the wheel has to be exactly on target
(within the stated accuracies, all of which add up).

Here's an example of a camber jig for home use:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg

Here's an even better camber jig setup for home use:
http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png

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This is good practical advice that you need to both roll the car back and
forth to let it settle on the suspension, and you need to add slip plates
under the wheels so that they slip nicely when adjusted.

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This is also good advice to bounce the car and to use slip plates for
measuring and adjusting toe so that the wheels move freely.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignpics/align3.jpg

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The really good news is that, like in your case, a simple bubble level
might suffice simply because a decent rear camber spec is zero degrees
anyway, which is the easiest angle to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png

In summary, what I've learned in the past day are a few things:

1. A practical value for rear camber is 0 degrees to a smidge negative
2. A practical value for toe-in is 0 inches to a smidge positive (inward)

Both those are so close to zero that I can check that they are zero, and
then I can tweak them to a "smidge" inward.

But that is a different problem from checking them, which seems to be
easily doable using a few common tools based on my googling today:
http://www.tomhoppe.com/index.php/2009/02/cheap-digital-camber-gauge/

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On 12/9/2016 12:14 PM, John Harmon wrote:
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   If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the  
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

  Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
   has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in-digital-lasertrac-reg-level/p-00948292000P?sid=BVReview

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
  That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a  
simple trig problem.
   The hard  part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you  
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.
                                     Mikek

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Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
After all this - consider the implication: An individual with the comprehen
sion of the common garden slug has taken tools to the suspension of a heavy
 machine capable of significant speed and will then put it on the road amon
gst similar machines. Worse, that same slug will likely be operating the ma
chine, perhaps with others in it.  

Anyone here wish to be on the road nearby? Not I, certainly.  

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
amdx actually said:

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I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers, so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

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That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

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I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

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The trig is easy. soh cah toa.  
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
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   I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right  
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the  
two angles.
  See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left  
figure.  > http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

  All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't  
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you  
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the  
wheel edge.
  Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't  
modify yours the way I wanted.
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                                       Mikek




Re: What happened to John Harmon?
On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
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  Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
                                 Mikek

Re: What happened to John Harmon?

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  I think he's fighting with a cheap harbour freight tire changer now.
If it's not him it's his identical twin brother (perhaps by a
different mother)  If not  the same guy, their understanding of the
principals is about the same level of non-existance.

Re: What happened to John Harmon?
On 14/12/2016 12:22 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
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Yes, it is an odd discussion and, because of that, one that I have been  
loath to become involved in. FWIW, back when I was doing wheel  
alignments, and lots of them, Toe was always designated as a 'linear  
measurement', usually in fractions of an inch for most of the vehicles  
that I worked on, and it was never an issue. The equipment I used, from  
the very basic to the most sophisticated computer types, had both linear  
and degree scales so the issue in this thread is really a non-runner.  
What's more, there always seemed to be some sort of conversion chart on  
hand, supplied by the equipment manufacturer, so there was never a need  
to deal with trig functions. Failing that, these days there are internet  
options of which I supplied the URL to one such in a past post.

--  

Xeno

First they ignore you,
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: What happened to John Harmon?
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 6:16:54 PM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
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"John Harmon", AKA Horation Alger, AKA Raymond Spruance et.al. does not exist except in the diseased and fevered mind of an established but not very clever internet troll.  

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA  


Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
On 12/8/2016 12:00 PM, John Harmon wrote:

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New to USENET?
I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude  
I prefer not potentially clutter things here.

FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so  
proud when you do so.

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
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I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude
I prefer not potentially clutter things here.

FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so
proud when you do so. "

I doubt the OP actually even knows what camber is. He is probably conflatin
g it with caster which is the amount the lower parts of the tires are close
r together. That angle along with the camber which could also be called ste
ering inclination axis is what makes the steering wheel return to the cente
r.  

Unfortunately most of what I know (and I know my limitations) applies to re
ar wheel drive cars which usually had a toe in, but now with front wheel dr
ive there is usually a toe out.  

I don't know if I can say this for true on these newer cars, some of which  
have quite complicated suspension, but in the old days if you knew how to a
lign a car you could do it with a piece of string. Things have changed and  
now withe front wheel drive and independent rear wheel suspension having it
's own caster and camber, toe in or whatever, has complicated the situation
 a bit.  

But still if you got the money for tires all you have to do is drive the ca
r a while and see the wear on the tires.  

Guy was telling me a long time ago that on some Mazeratis there were like f
our shocks per wheel. I stuck with electronics LOL. In fact last year we di
d a head job (due to a jumped timing chain) on a Chevy Ecotec engine. I wan
t NOTHING to do with them anymore.  

Anyway, camber matter most on turns. the rest of it not so much. Measuring  
it entails getting the geometry of the hub/tire/whatever at a straight on p
osition and then comparing that to it at a turning position. Camber goes al
ong with the geometry of the whole steering assembly to establish toe out o
n turns, because one wheel is turning a larger radius than the other. You d
on't generally set that except maybe on big semi trucks. It is simply figur
ed out when they design it. T%The camber does affect it, but really you don
't have to set that unless you change the lower A frame. Even changing the  
whole strut tower is not likely to affect it much, enough to worry about an
yway.  

And people want to worry about shit like this when the brake lines are rust
ing out and the software that runs the engine is about to crash. Gimme a 19
67 Chevy, really. Now on those you DID set the camber. It is all in the sho
p manual. (not a Chilton's)

Re: Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Ed Pawlowski actually said:

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What we don't want is advice from people who would never contemplate doing
a camber measurement at home.  

We want advice from people who have actually checked camber at home:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg

All the advice from tlvp, for example, of why he would NOT to check his
camber at home is and was already known before he posted anything. He added
negative value to this thread.  

Since he would never do it, he has never thought about how to do it, and
since he not only knows not how to do it, but more importantly, he has
never done it, so his advice not to do it doesn't help anyone.

He simply wasted everyone's time with his fear-filled response.

Likewise, you waste everyone's time with your I-won't-tell-you response.
If you're not going to tell anyone anything, then why bother responding?

Besides, you only pretend to have done it, which is fine, but you playing
make believe doesn't help anyone here. I knew all this would happen,
because most people are utterly horrified at the mere thought of checking
camber at home so I was trying to avoid having to respond to comments like
yours and tlvp's which simply waste everyone's time.

Based on these specs (
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg) the measurement
range is plus or minus 3 degrees to an accuracy of plus or minus one
minute.

If we can't achieve one minute of accuracy out of a mobile device, what
*is* the accuracy thqt we *can* achieve out of a mobile device?

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