How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work? - Page 2

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On 05/12/2018 17:18, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

If you don't specifically need this old version of the software for  
handling old chips, then why not use newer and better versions, and save  
yourself the fuss with the licence files?



Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
Quoted text here. Click to load it

There's a legitimate reason to use an old version when synthesising, because
porting from one version of the tools to another is nontrivial (particularly
with respect to supplied IP cores, which can change functionality in
incompatible ways).  So if somebody gives me a project built with a particular
version, the first thing I do is try and build with that version, then port
forward and see if it still works.  Timing can often be markedly different
between versions (not always for the better).

However, I can't think of an instance when simulating where you might need
to use an older version of the simulator.

(give or take issues like 32 v 64 bit versions of tools and whatever your
host OS supports)

Theo

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On 05/12/18 22:07, Theo wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yes, I realise that - and I recommend not changing the tools for an
existing project without extremely good reason.  (I work mainly with
embedded software, rather than programmable logic, but the same applies
there.)

However, my understanding is that the OP is doing tests and experiments
with new code and a new design, so this does not apply.

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 11:18:12 AM UTC-5, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

You will find the same thing with Lattice.  You need to obtain a free license to run their free tools.  Not a big deal, but it runs out after a year and you need to get another free license.  

  Rick C.  

  Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Quartus yes, but not for Modelsim.
(there may be some models of chip-specific logic cells if you want to simulate
synthesised logic, but most users are simulating direct from HDL source
code)

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That used to be true (hence why I queried using an older version), but is no
longer.  For recent Quartus and Modelsim, you don't need a licence for
Quartus Lite and Modelsim-Intel FPGA Edition.

Quartus prompts whether you want to ask for a 30 day trial licence, but it
still works for a limited set of FPGAs and IP cores without.
(eg Cyclone is included in Quartus Lite but Stratix needs Quartus Std with a
paid licence)

Theo

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:50:18 PM UTC-8, Theo wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
f
ulate
 no
Quoted text here. Click to load it
t
h a

Hi Theo,

Where can I download Quartus Lite and Modelsim-Intel FPGA Edition?

I downloaded from Intel website  and got Altera_installer_12.1. I clicked t
he application Modelsim.10.1b and it immediately popped a window saying fat
al licence error.  

After entering Intel website I really missed and don't know which is which.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

If you are kind enough, please give me the exact address. I downloaded just
 yesterday. So actually I downloaded a different version from yours.

I ask for an old version, not because I use any old chip, but it is free. I
f it is true that "For recent Quartus and Modelsim, you don't need a licenc
e for Quartus Lite and Modelsim-Intel FPGA Edition", absolutely I would lik
e to download a 2008 VHDL version simulator.

Writing code in VHDL 2008 is much easier than in VHDL 2002.

Thank you.

Weng

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On 06/12/2018 01:03, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
..snip
Quoted text here. Click to load it

If you are a student then I would recommend the student edition which  
has far less limitations (instance limits) although for some unknown  
reason it is still single language only:

https://www.mentor.com/company/higher_ed/modelsim-student-edition

Mentor used to have lots of FPGA vendor OEM agreements (by my count at  
least 6), nowadays there are only 3(?) left:

Intel:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/software/programmable/quartus-prime/model-sim.html

Microchip:
https://www.microchip.com/design-centers/programmable-logic/spld-cpld/tools/software/prochip-designer

Microchip(MicroSemi):
https://www.microsemi.com/product-directory/dev-tools/4900-modelsim

Quoted text here. Click to load it

So true, however, make sure your synthesis tool can handle 2008 as  
changing your code back from 2008 to 2002 is a real pain.

Good luck,
Hans.
www.ht-lab.com


Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
Quoted text here. Click to load it

https://dl.altera.com/

You'll need to login.

The dropdowns allow you to select 'Lite' and whatever version you need.
18.1 is the most recent.


I wouldn't use this for your first time, but because I end up deploying
Quartus to servers a lot, I wrote a Python script to download and install
the Linux version:
https://github.com/CTSRD-CHERI/quartus-install

This doesn't have a complete database of URLs, only the ones I've needed for
particular jobs, and it has a few rough edges.  Happy to take pull requests.  
(the URLs can be generated programmatically, but Altera kept changing the
format between versions so I gave up and just pasted them all in)

Theo

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 8:46:02 PM UTC-8, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi,

Here is the latest version of GHDL document published minutes ago:

https://media.readthedocs.org/pdf/ghdl/latest/ghdl.pdf

GHDL Documentation

Release 0.36-dev

Tristan Gingold

Dec 15, 2018

Weng

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 7:43:52 AM UTC-8, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

It is the latest INFORMATION of GHDL:

The current version of GHDL does not contain any graphical viewer: you cannot see signal waves.  

You can still check the behavior of your design with a test bench.  

Moreover, the current version can produce a GHW, VCD or FST files which can be viewed with a waveform viewer, such as GtkWave.

GHDL aims at implementing VHDL as defined by IEEE 1076. It supports the 1987, 1993 and 2002 revisions and, partially, the latest, 2008. PSL is also partially supported.

Several third party projects are supported: VUnit, OSVVM, cocotb (through the VPI interface), . . .

Now I know why GHDL is not populous, the basic reason is it has no waveform viewer!

But for a free version, it still has its values:
1. It can be used to correct all VHDL grammar errors, playing the same rule as Modelsim does.

2. It can be used to test a pre-issued product playing the same rule as Modelsim does, but it should be faster than Modelsim PE or SE.

3. At least it provides files to communicate with third party software to view the waveform.  

I will be comfortable with this method: As an experienced VHDL designer, I spent most of time running Modelsim until an error showed up. The speed is very important factor to get all bugs discovered.

Weng



Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On 15/12/2018 16:07, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
..
Quoted text here. Click to load it

This is really good as none of the restricted free commercial versions  
supports PSL.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
Build-in waveform viewer, but I agree with you this is a major obstacle.  
The waveform display is the number one debugging window. It doesn't  
matter if you design an AND gate or the latest billion gate machine  
learning chip the waveform window is always king. For this reason EDA  
vendors have added all sorts of enhancements such as virtual  
signals/functions, transaction display, analogue display, multiple  
panes, group/combine functions, scripting etc.
GHW+Sigasi improves the situation but it is still not as smooth or  
capable as the free restricted Modelsim or ActiveHDL versions.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
Definitely, I hope GHDL will be the first simulator to fully support the  
2018 standard.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Hum? why should it be faster? I give all kudos to Tristan (et al.) as he  
wrote an amazing piece of software but it is definitely not faster than  
Modelsim. I ran two of my test cases again to see if anything has  
changed and GHDL was still 6x slower than Modelsim 10.7c. This is no  
surprise as Mentor has an army of engineers trying to squeeze the last  
fs from the simulation time.
Modelsim SE has been obsolete for at least 8 years (replaced by Questa).

Hans
www.ht-lab.com

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Hans,

I appreciate your sharing experiences with us.

I desplayed Youtube "Getting Started With VHDL on Windows (GHDL & GTKWave)"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2GyAIYwZbw&t94%6s


I asked one Modelsim seller who offers to sell Modelsim DE.

Do you have any experiences with different versions of Modelsim and their prices?  

It seems to me that buying a Modelsim perpetual use of PE, or other advanced version may be my best option.  

Thank you.

Weng

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On 23/12/2018 13:47, Weng Tianxiang wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Nice tutorial although I would forget about the VCD format as it is not  
well suited for VHDL. There is e.g. no support for enumerated types (I  
suspect GTKwave will allow you to add them afterwards with some virtual  
functions). If you want to use GHDL use GHW+GTKWave together with Sigasi:

https://youtu.be/thenLKSynO8

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Have a look at this comparison chart:

https://www.innofour.com/1015/eda/fpga-design/simulation-verification/modelsim-edition-comparison

The main difference is that Modelsim DE will give you full support for  
PSL/SVA which is great for functional verification. You also get access  
to the FLI (VHDL C/C++ I/F) and full 64bits Windows support to name a  
few. If you don't need any of these just ask for Modelsim PE.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

If you need it for commercial work then yes Modelsim is a great product.  
For personal use it is too expensive. Intel has a $1995 version (for  
Intel FPGA's only) but I think it is for 1 year only (non perpetual) and  
has lower performance than Modelsim.

Good luck,
Hans
www.ht-lab.com


Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 6:52:58 AM UTC-5, HT-Lab wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
cannot see signal waves.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 can be viewed with a waveform viewer, such as GtkWave.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 1987, 1993 and 2002 revisions and, partially, the latest, 2008. PSL is als
o partially supported.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
gh the VPI interface), . . .
Quoted text here. Click to load it
form viewer!
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
rule as Modelsim does.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 Modelsim does, but it should be faster than Modelsim PE or SE.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

It could be faster than Modelsim because Modelsim is intentionally crippled
 unless you pay for the fastest version.  So if GHDL picks up the same sort
s of speed enhancements as commercial packages it won't require that the hi
gher speeds be enabled.  


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Personally I wouldn't know.  I use the ActiveHDL that comes free with Latti
ce tools.  I gave up paying for this sort of software.  I didn't feel I was
 getting anything for my money.  Support is not good.  It seems most suppor
t comes from the community, in both commercial and open source packages.  S
o why pay for commercial stuff?  

  Rick C.

  - Get 6 months of free supercharging  
  - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On 23/12/2018 15:18, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
..

True, but Modelsim's OEM versions are about 40% of the speed of Modelsim  
which means they are still faster than GHDL (base on my limited  
testing). Of course this is true until you reach the instance limit in  
which case Modelsim OEM grinds to a halt. It would be great if GHDL was  
faster than Modelsim as for some of my designs I don't need to log any  
signals, just sockets I/O.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

How can GHDL pick up the same sorts of speed enhancements? I am sure all  
EDA vendors keep their optimisers a close secret.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I do.


Right and that version is not crippled?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

for you...., doesn't mean it is bad for everybody.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Because if you work on a commercial product and you find an issue you  
want to pick up the phone and get help immediately. They are required to  
help you as you are paying expensive maintenance, if they don't help you  
you switch products. Also for a complex product you can not rely on the  
free versions as they are too limited in their capabilities. I guess you  
are happy with the free ActiveHDL version as your designs are not that  
large.

Regards,
Hans.
www.ht-lab.com


Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: How to make Altera-Modelsim free download version to work?
On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 11:09:00 AM UTC-5, HT-Lab wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

My use of the free tools is post having paid for tools and gotten a lot less than I would have liked.  

What gets support is buying lots of chips, not support dollars.  Support dollars are chump change in the budget of the chip makers.  


  Rick C.

  -- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Site Timeline