No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the
8051 core in the EFM8BB1).Of course, for a small enough program and high enough volume, no one will listen to the programmers' complaints :-)
We have high volume, so the programmer can complain all he wants, HW rules
We have high volume, the programmers can complain all they want - in this case HW rules
That certainly is not high volume pricing at an asian foundry. You may refer to this article:
So the die cost is closer to 0.01USD...
? of
0.025 USD for the die cost alonefour-years-ago-2018-10/
That is interesting. I have a price indication in the neighborhood of 1000 EUR per 8 inch wafer. I see that the link you provided is below half that f igure
But, it seems those a very big players, ultra high volumes. I have a low vo lume compared to that, only 400 wafers per year
Cheers
Klaus
It's noteworthy that you didn't even invoke the demon PIC12... :)
Clifford Heath.
o 0.025 USD for the die cost alone
0 EUR per 8 inch wafer. I see that the link you provided is below half that figure
volume compared to that, only 400 wafers per year
Why does the volume of your wafer really impact the cost much? I would exp ect fabbing a wafer to be highly automated so that the cost of changing fro m one design to another to be fairly small. The cost factor would be mostl y in keeping the machine producing so the amortization is spread over many wafers. Does it really take much time or effort to change from one design to another?
Rick C.
Just be careful not to say its name three times in a row!
Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them - or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)
David Brown wrote
That 12F has other virtues you do not so easily find in other micros: ; wms-0.1.asm ; Copyright (c) Jan Panteltje 2010-always. ; ; Temperature controller / thermostat replacement for Zanussi 913 washing machine. ; The original sensor has one make contact at 40 C that is in series with the mechanical timer clock, and one break contact at 90 C that is in series with the heating element. ; wms.asm for Microchip 12F629. ; From Microchhip program: TSTAT2~1.ASM. modified for RS232 ASCII out and PIC 12F629. ; see Microchip application notes 00720c.pdf (temp sensor using watch dog timer), and 00510e.pdf (for software serial out).
Fixed old washing machine with it...
Not hard to program at all.
than a dirt cheap logic IC
Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external cry stal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
--sp
s than a dirt cheap logic IC
on 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One wei rd thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external c rystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscilla tor? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
Rick C.
ess than a dirt cheap logic IC
oton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One w eird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
lator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock fre quency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmabl e logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS t inylogic part and a few other bits.
-sp
te:
less than a dirt cheap logic IC
uvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an extern al crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator modul e.
illator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
he same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
requency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programma ble logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've al ways wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
My product has an FPGA so a crystal would require some effort to qualify a crystal circuit and at
rote:
:or less than a dirt cheap logic IC
Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. O ne weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an exte rnal crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator mod ule.
scillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curiou s. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (program mable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CM OS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package.
Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MO SFETs (n-channel)
That's 1.7 cents USD.
--sp
:
te:
for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
he Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an ex ternal crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator m odule.
oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curi ous. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
ly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
ck frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (progr ammable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
e always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic packag e if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
e.
MOSFETs (n-channel)
Yeah, guess I forgot a crystal can't be put in a plastic package... or can it? I seem to recall PC clock chips including the crystal and battery in p lastic.
Rick C.
I've disassembled those it was a regular PDIP chip, CR2032 button cell and and a metal-can tuning fork crystal all potted in a little ABS box
I think they run crystals in a vacuum. glass/ceramic packages are available.
eg:
-- Notsodium is mined on the banks of denial.
ote:
oes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
r.
h the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-
an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm c urious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
ughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (pr ogrammable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic pac kage if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
kage.
hm MOSFETs (n-channel)
can it? I seem to recall PC clock chips including the crystal and battery in plastic.
d and a metal-can tuning fork crystal all
le.
Yes, that's what they use, but it is more expensive than plastic. Heck, th is thread is about a 3 cent MCU in a plastic package.
Crystals are packaged in what would appear to be very inexpensive metal can s. I would think the package is the biggest part of the price difference a lthough I guess I don't really know that much about it. An oscillator requ ires a chip, a crystal and I would expect a cap or two. I wonder if the as sembly cost is significant in an oscillator. I expect no more than putting four parts on the PCB vs. one.
Rick C.
The quotes we have gotten for the PIC series were above the Silabs and ATTiny parts. So no need to push the PIC onto programmers :-)
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