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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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By all accounts, no, the 100MHz unit is an identical board. People who tried
to examine the hardware front ends (and other parts) could not find any
differences between the two models. That's what originally prompted me to
suggest there was just a component value difference in the models, but of
course as it turns out it's much simpler than that, they are identical. If
they weren't identical, then there would be no need for the software logic
switch to set the 50MHz limit, they'd simply do it with BOM changes.

The sample rate and all other performance features are the same between
units, so there is no need for better or faster ADC's or processor in the
100MHz model.

Dave.

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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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I thought the 100MHz scope has another timebase setting, so the firmware would
have to know about the BOM change.  The component still could have different
ratings.  It likely is the same, though.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:51:32 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" =

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A mere jumper would do the job.  Jumper in 100 MHz, jumper out 50 MHz.  =
Have the20%
firmware read the jumper at startup.  Or a different resistor value like =
they do20%
for fancy (HP/Tek) scope probes.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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the
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do
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Sure, but that is a BOM change.  It's no different, really, than versioning
hardware (so firmware can configure itself for the hardware rev/features).

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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The "two week disposable" lenses are the same as the "yearly" lenses
(if they are even sold anymore).

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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They are screwing you how? It isn't like they are selling you a 50MHz
unit for the price of a 100MHz one, but rather the other way around.
They obviously could sell the 100MHz unit much cheaper but that is
commercial decision that they took presumably based on what the rival
units cost.

Its in your hands, if you think that the price for the 100MHz unit is
too high, then don't buy it, go to another manufacturer. I haven't
looked at the prices for 100 MHz units, but I suspect that Rogol's price
is in line with it's rivals otherwise they wouldn't be selling any.

Personally, I'll stick to my ancient 250MHz Tektronix that cost me less
than half the price of a Rogol.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:15:35 +1100, John Tserkezis =

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No, they haven't.  The 20 MHz bandwidth limiter is common to both scopes20%
and is plainly documented; some find it useful.  Using it to produce two20%
models differentiated by bandwidth was perhaps too clever.
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This one is the real problem.  A mere password could have stopped this.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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He bought the scope, he can do whatever he wants with it. If you want
hardware with a Nazi attitude, buy gear from Apple.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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I agree with you regarding youtube. This would be one simple webpage.
I'm really annoyed that google is including youtube video in google
searches. It takes so much work to see if the youtube "document" is
what you need.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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far. People like
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their products if they
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price....

...and access to extended functionality that someone's had to be paid to
develop?

Yes.

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made it justifiable
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...and access to further functionality that someone's had to be paid to
develop....

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By your logic Microsoft should only be charging $0.50 for the costs of the
DVD when they sell Windows7.


Nial





Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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In this case Rigol actually went to the trouble to design-in circuitry to
enable this 50MHz "cripple" feature. The front end was clearly designed from
day one to be at least 100MHz bandwidth, and they then decided to dumb it
down to meet a lower end market and price point by adding the cripple
feature.
So George is essentially right, the only effective difference is the price.

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The only extra functionality is being able to go to 2ns timebase instead of
5ns, everything else is identical. A couple of lines of code?

Any extra design effort that has gone into this product all went in to
designing the cripple feature to dumb it down!

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A completely silly analogy.

Dave.

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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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enable this 50MHz
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least 100MHz
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and price point by
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OK but they had to design in the functionality to allow them to change the
front end bandwidth.

The only way this is dishonest is if they promised something and didn't
deliver it.

If you bought a 50MHz scope you got that, if you spent more you got one
with 100MHz bandwidth.

Someone posted earlier saying they should have just flooded the market with
the 100MHz scope but that's their business decision.

It's not dishonest.

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5ns, everything else
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designing the cripple
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Or add the flexibility to set the bandwidth.


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Not really, the argument was that the price should be set on the hardware
and that firmware that enables functionality is dishonest to charge for.


Nial






Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:45:38 +1100, "David L. Jones"

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Not at all. IP costs money to develop and has to be paid for. And
there are economies of scale from building one hardware platform and
marketing competitive products that have different firmware. Rigol's
error was to make the hack too easy.

It's like stealing stuff out of cars. People will steal thongs if you
don't roll up the windows and lock the doors, so everybody has to roll
up the windows and lock the doors. Ditto big steel vaults in banks.
It's inefficient because a minority of people will game the rules any
way they can, sometimes just because they can.

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Rigol did the engineering and selected a business model, and you chose
to break it based on some moral judgement of your own. They will have
to react somehow, which will cost them money one way or another.

Why did you do this? Did you feel that Rigol was cheating the public
and deserved to be exposed and, additionally, deprived of revenue?

John


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:45:21 -0700, John Larkin

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I don't see it that way, at all, John.  I think the
manufacturer took a risk designing as they did and chose to
do so, anyway.  They knew it was possible that this may be
uncovered and decided to go for it.

When I buy a tool, I am completely free to repurpose it in
any way I want to.  When I buy a hammer, it may not get used
as the manufacturer intended.  So what.  When I buy a Tek
scope, I may decide to gut it and redo some things in it to
improve its use to me.

Your point hangs entirely on what was in the MIND of those
who fielded this DS1052E.  I would have to somehow _know_ in
advance (and although we can assume and are probably right
here, it is still an assumption) that Rigol didn't want me
making these particular modifications but don't mind if I
make other ones I might someday decide to make (such as
hauling out sections and using them with more effort and work
on my part for something entirely different.)  In other
words, you are arguing that because _these_ modifications are
simple and other ones more complex, that repurposing in one
direction is wrong and another direction is just fine (I'm
assuming here that you wouldn't mind me dismantling it and
using it for parts, for example.)

That's a crazy argument.

If they want to make it difficult, and you have suggested
they may now have to do that, then that is fine, too.  There
is nothing wrong with that.  But to argue that a buyer is
limited in certain ways and NOT limited in certain other ways
in using a tool they have purchased, merely based upon the
manufacturer's mindset about some of these vs others, is
going too far.  They always have the option of making it more
difficult, if they are that concerned.  But when I buy a some
hardware, it is MINE to use as I see fit.  Including shooting
it with a shotgun, hammering it to pieces, or slipping a wire
from here to there.  Period.  End of story.  I'm not going to
get involved in worrying about whether or not MY behavior is
congruent to THEIR business.  I am focused on what is good
for me, they are focused on what is good for them, and that
is a good thing I think you'd agree with considing your other
remarks on other topics.  We each look out for ourselves, I
think you'd say.  Self-interest is a good thing, I think
you'd say.

Dave is merely putting information out for end users, freely.
I see no problem with that, either.  It's his own decision.

Jon

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:18:30 -0700, Jon Kirwan

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They made it too easy to hack. Now they're going to have to rework the
firmware to make it harder, which will cost them something.

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I commented that what he did may be a crime under US law. Personally,
I class it with vandalism.


  They always have the option of making it more
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IP is different under law. You can't buy music or videos or software
and do whatever you like with it... for instance make and sell copies,
or open your own theatre and show movies that aren't licensed. IP is
different from physical things.

You can buy a brick and make and sell all the copies you like.


  Including shooting
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Obviously. But I'm curious as to why he did it, and especially why he
went to the touble to make a video and post it on youtube.

Why, Dave?

John


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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They screwed up, they bear the cost.

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Dave is an Australian, living in Australia.  Why would (or should) he care
about US law?
Do you consider Australian law whilst going about your day to day business?

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That's bullshit.  How can you vandalise something you legally own?

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Why not?  He seems to not be breaking any Australian law.  Why does he have
to justify himself to you particularly regarding the laws of another
country?  Your questioning him demonstrates your arrogance towards a law
abiding citizen of another country.


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Dyna

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