Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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Any recommendations?

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Yes. Don't do it. It's a huge waste of money.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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Not to someone who wants it.
I'm sure Terry is aware of the cost/payback implications. There are many
reasons why people get PV installations.
No different to anything else really.

Dave.



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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I'll second that. There are lots of motivations even including doing it for
enjoyment!



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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It doesn't just cost him money. It costs me money. He'll use the PV
cells to reduce his power demand when then sun is shining, and use grid
supplied electricity when it's not. This reduces the overall utilisation
of the grid and the generators attached to it, which pushes up the cost
of the electricity that it delivers. As a consumer of that electricity,
I have to pay more as a result.

Sylvia.




Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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That's a very narrow minded view indeed.

Do you realise it may also help you?
You complained the other week that you needed a generator because of the
"parlous" state of the power system in Australia (and in Sydney where you
live). By Terry installing a solar system that might just help make the
power system less "parlous", and it might even SAVE you money by you not
having to buy that back up generator after all. You should be thanking him
for installing one.

Dave.



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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I think it unlikely that his installation of PV cells would impact on my
decision to install a generator. I doubt I would ever be able to
determine whether he'd actually improved the reliability of my supply.

By contrast, the impact his installation has on electricity pricing is
quite direct.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Your analysis of why the cost goes up to grid consumers is a pretty long
bow to draw.

If the grid is utilised less (on a reasonable scale), then one of two
things are likely:

1. There'll be surplus power and generally anything surplus gets cheaper or

2. Less fuel is consumed by the power stations reducing their running
costs, and thus a potential saving is there to be be passed on. Whether
the pass-on occurs or not, of course is debatable. More fool us to buy
from a rip-off supplier if they don't pass on savings.

Of course the electricity distribution & associated cost-disbursement
system in this country is far too complicated for such simple
generalised analyses...

Chris.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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That's a short term effect. In the longer term the generating capacity
will adjust to meet demand.

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Fuel is not the only cost in the production of electricity. Capital is a
major cost. The equipment has to be there whether or not it's in use,
and the capital costs have to be shared amongst the users.

A person who installs solar cells is essentially using the grid as a
free backup, and their demand on the grid will be more variable, and
less predictable, than the demand of someone without solar cells. In a
truely transparent market, a person would have to pay a premium to be
allowed to buy power on the basis that they may not buy any, but are
guaranteed to be able to buy whatever amount they want whenever they
want to.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area


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Err, AFAIK, they do not. It isn't unusual for a significant amount of
capacity to be off line for maintenance. In fact, it is essential for
reliability.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Full time when they're available to be scheduled. Other capacity spends
much of its time available to be scheduled, but off line, because its
marginal cost of operation exceeds that of the coal fired plants.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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So. They would not have been built if there wasn't a gap in the market
that coal could not fill. It is the same for PV on suburban rooftops.
They can fill gap in the market.

The clouds part over the suburb of wankerville and all those coddled
house mums wack on the aircon. If we wait for the centralised generators
like hydro, ICE's, etc to kick in, we can have minutes of low power.

Now, if some of those roofs have PV installations, their output varies
with the sunshine and they are right on the spot to provide power where
and when needed, actually before it is needed.

You need to get off the mindless repetition of jargon. It isn't an
argument.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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There isn't so much a gap, as a distortion. Without massive subsidies
only a few green enthusiasts would get further than noting the price.

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And when the clouds close over again, the PV output drops, but the
airconditioners are still on until said coddled house mums get round to
turning them off, thus leading to a power shortfall.

In reality, of course, the situation isn't like that. Clouds do not part
over large areas at once, and people do not react instantly. What
happens is that as the load increases the frequency tends to drop.
Generators providing frequency control (a special service for which they
get paid) then increase their output to maintain the frequency. They can
do that very rapidly because the generators are already rotating at the
correct rate. Essentially they just open the throttle to prevent the
generator from slowing down.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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It's desirable as a producer to run at full capacity but it's the spot
market that determines who actually runs. The customer wants the
cheapest energy and doesn't particularly care about the producers
problems. In fact producers in Western Australia get fined tens of
thousands of dollars per hour for unscheduled outages, and that's in
addition to having to pay another supplier to cover your shortfall.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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It is, but only a deranged gas-fired plant manager bids prices below his
marginal cost of operation, and only a similarly deranged coal-fired
plant manager bids prices above the marginal cost of gas-fired plant
when it's unlikely that all the gas-fired capacity will be required anyway.

So the practical outcome is that as demand reduces, generators are taken
off-line in reverse order of marginal cost.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area


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Completely irrelevant to the point I made. As I said, buy then the hydro
and ICEs can have turbines spinning.

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Correct, but you have totally ignored reality that turbines are not
rotating unless they are scheduled to be running. Local PV can cover the
spin up time.

Also, according to your often repeated mantra, there isn't any capacity
for those spinning turbines to supply the extra load.


Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Why would the hydro and ICE be running when the load is being supported
by PV, just against the unknown future moment when the clouds close again?

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They're rotating if they've been scheduled to provide frequency support.
As I said, they get paid for that. That is, in addition to being paid
for the power they actually generate, they get paid for being there to
absorb fluctuations in load.

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I haven't said that. If you think I did, they you've misconstrued
something I said, or are taking it out of context.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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Correction, *any* PV, wind, tidal power etc, can cover the spin up time,
(given suitable weather conditions only) and local roof top units are simply
the most expensive to install and maintain per kWHr, thus the most
uneconomic if it wasn't for stupid government handouts of other taxpayers
money.

Just another insane idea brought to you by Howard and Costello.

MrT.



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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Correct. It's sad that PV solar panel power is so badly misrepresented. It has
its place but not as a grid source.


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Uhuh.

Graham


Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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You'll need a damn big PV installation to run air conditioning of any amount.
Maybe 20 m3

Graham


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