OS choices

JP> Wow, my latest Pi4 only has 8 GB.. JP> I take it you mean 32 MB

Erm, no, I meant 32 GB...of (microSD) storage, *not* RAM. (^_^) The 3B+ only has 1 GB of RAM.

JP> All that said my old Pies ? and the new Pi4s run normal raspi OS from JP> those days JP> but I modified it so they all run fvwm with 9 virtual desktops and xfm JP> as file manager in one of those desktops. JP> Same user interface everywhere (laptop, PCs, all the same). JP> Do most from the command line anyway.

I think it's "Pis", or maybe "Pi's" (o_-)

I'm not using Linux for all my devices, since I am a big gamer. My laptop, and (obviously) my...pies...all have some version of Debian on them, though...PiOS (or DietPi) or Linux Mint, respectively.

Again, I am looking for simplest possible solution. I have no need for 9 virtual desktop, when I'd only use one, and even that only rarely...as you say, most of it is done by command line. I also don't have the spare time to do a custom build, which is why I asked for complete OS options...

Enjoy your day!

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

TN> > Wow, my latest Pi4 only has 8 GB.. TN> TN> I think my zero has 16GB TN> But its only the cost of an SD card innit?

I'm pretty sure the gentleman has confused storage with memory. (^_^)

Do you have a suggestion for PiBBS's next OS?

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

JP> >which is why I asked for complete OS options... JP>

JP> Well there exist probably few that have all options one can dream of, I JP> will leave it to others to show what they know. JP> JP> Gaming? Last time was packman or someting years ago. JP> Programming and designing [electronics in my case] is more challenging JP> for me as it gives me something you can actually use.

As I sort-of described in my OP, this Pi will be used (more or less) only as a home server. PiBBS, maybe a basic website, and that's about it (Oh, compiling programs as well, as the need arises, but I do the development on my PC, since it's connected to a big display). All of this would be done through network connections like ssh, ftp, or vnc. I certainly don't need gaming options, or anything relating to sound, video, wifi, bluetooth, et cetera. I have a separate Pi4B with PiOS for general purpose use like that.

I will do a full wipe anyway, in order to clean up mistakes and leftover projects/files. I will have to install a fresh OS, and this is why I am wondering: should I change OSes? And to which one? DietPi is doing its job pretty well, though it has some minor drawbacks. It is acceptable to just re-install that. Or I could install any one of many alternates.

It's not an easy decision, and that's why I'm asking everyone for advice.

(^_^)/

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

Th> > I'm planning to do a data wipe on the Pi 3B+ that is currently hosting P Th> > I wish to discuss the various options for the OS that I would install Th> > afterward. Th> Th> Unless you have good reasons otherwise how about Raspberry Pi OS Lite, Th> which comes in 32 and 64 bit flavours? It's supported by the RPF and is Th> the most well tested path for the Pi.

I can't think of any reasons otherwise, good or bad. And, other than a few added tweaks, DietPi basically *is* PiOS Lite.

What benefit would there be in using a 64-bit OS on a 3B+? Sure, on a Pi4 with

Th> That's enough to get you going. Then pick a desktop and install what you Th> want for it - there are typically metapackages that pull in enough to get Th> a basic desktop up, but not extra stuff - eg 'lxde' depends on image Th> viewer, terminal and calculator, but heavyweight stuff like LibreOffice Th> is a recommendation not a dependency.

Ugh. Work. Hate the stuff, personally...(-_-)

I could also do the same on DietPi. Their 'dietpi-launcher' even has two-click installers for lxde, xfce, and...lxqt? Even Mate is in there. I did eventually install lxde (and TigerVNC), because some things are just easier on a desktop than on a commandline.

Th> If you want a more basic desktop for VNC purposes, install a standalone Th> window manager like twm, i3 or fvwm - they aren't desktop environments so Th> don't drag in lots of extra stuff. If you want a clock, a terminal or a Th> calculator you'd have to install them separately (unless xclock, xterm Th> and xcalc are good enough for you)

Terminal, and a file manager, for sure; not sure what else I'd need. I'd have a full-fledged desktop right behind the VNC window, after all. I keep forgetting that window managers are a thing. These would 'automagically' work with a VNC connection?

Th> > Currently, I am using DietPi 'bullseye'. I like it, for its minimal over Th> > and extra optimization options out of the box. It is possible to send AP Th> > log data to RAM(or swap, whatever) immediately after installing. Th> Th> I don't think RaspiOS will do that out of the box, but it can be set up Th> manually later.

Did I mention my feelings about this 'work' stuff, yet? (o_O)

Thanks for the advice. I will look into window manager options.

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

So install a simple window manager and the applications you want like we all did before Gnome and KDE - and some of us still do :) There's a

On a sunny day (Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:03:29 +1200) it happened snipped-for-privacy@f110.n.z1.fidonet.org (Shaun Buzza) wrote in snipped-for-privacy@f110.n.z1.fidonet.org>:

Wow, my latest Pi4 only has 8 GB.. I take it you mean 32 MB All that said my old Pies ? and the new Pi4s run normal raspi OS from those days but I modified it so they all run fvwm with 9 virtual desktops and xfm as file manager in one of those desktops. Same user interface everywhere (laptop, PCs, all the same). Do most from the command line anyway.

Th> I'm not familiar with DietPi but it seems to be developed by a handful of Th> people. The risk with this kind of project is they eventually stop Th> supporting it and you have to migrate to something else.

The same could be said for Mystic, which I'm using for PiBBS's backend. But a lack of support doesn't mean the software is not usable. I can think of at least one computer in my general life that is still running Windows XP.

Th> For this kind Th> of setup, where you're explicitly wanting a desktop (of some kind) I'm Th> not sure that starting with a 'diet' image and then installing a bunch Th> of stuff will give much advantage over just starting with the vanilla Th> Lite image.

None that I can think of, either, aside from a few performance tweaks that were included in this specific 'diet' build.

Th> > What benefit would there be in using a 64-bit OS on a 3B+? Sure, on a Pi Th> > with Th> > 8GB, it makes a lot of sense. But...on a 3B+ with 1GB? I can only think Th> > negatives, when considering that option. Th> Th> aarch64 is faster than aarch32. While the pointers are bigger and you Th> pay some memory overhead for that, you also get better performance.

Is it a significant performance gain?

A difference of a few seconds on an hour-long workload isn't worth doubling the memory requirements for some things, I would think. Especially if a particular task were already memory-heavy. This may just be picking nits, though. As stated, this Pi would mainly be used for relatively simple tasts, like hosting PiBBS, a simple website, and maybe a local file server...

However, I *might* need it for compiling Pi-compatible software. Is it safe to assume that one can compile 32-bit apps in 64-bit PiOS? If so, it might be better to have 64-bit, so I can compile for both...

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

I think my zero has 16GB But its only the cost of an SD card innit? df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/root 15G 2.0G 12G 14% / devtmpfs 213M 0 213M 0% /dev tmpfs 217M 0 217M 0% /dev/shm tmpfs 217M 23M 195M 11% /run tmpfs 5.0M 4.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock tmpfs 217M 0 217M 0% /sys/fs/cgroup tmpfs 1.0M 0 1.0M 0% /var/MiPiFi /dev/mmcblk0p1 44M 23M 21M 52% /boot tmpfs 44M 0 44M 0% /run/user/1000

????

On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Mar 2022 11:23:49 +0000) it happened The Natural Philosopher snipped-for-privacy@invalid.invalid wrote in <t11q45$qeq$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

My error, was thinking he was talking about memory Yes I have 32 GB Samsung SDcards in my Pi4, 16 GB and 32 GB in older Pies, and a Tosbiba 3.6 TB USB harddisk hanging on each Pi4

raspi95: ~ # df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/root 29G 17G 11G 61% / devtmpfs 1.8G 0 1.8G 0% /dev tmpfs 2.0G 960K 2.0G 1% /dev/shm tmpfs 2.0G 17M 1.9G 1% /run tmpfs 5.0M 8.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock tmpfs 2.0G 0 2.0G 0% /sys/fs/cgroup /dev/mmcblk0p1 253M 52M 201M 21% /boot tmpfs 391M 0 391M 0% /run/user/1000 /dev/sda2 3.6T 3.0T 433G 88% /mnt/sda2 tmpfs 391M 0 391M 0% /run/user/0

raspi99: ~ # df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/root 29G 20G 7.4G 73% / devtmpfs 3.8G 20K 3.8G 1% /dev tmpfs 3.9G 21M 3.9G 1% /dev/shm tmpfs 3.9G 73M 3.8G 2% /run tmpfs 5.0M 8.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock tmpfs 3.9G 0 3.9G 0% /sys/fs/cgroup /dev/mmcblk0p1 253M 54M 199M 22% /boot tmpfs 788M 0 788M 0% /run/user/1000 /dev/sda2 3.6T 786G 2.7T 23% /mnt/sda2 tmpfs 788M 0 788M 0% /run/user/0

-:) root@raspi1:~# df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on rootfs 15G 6.4G 7.3G 47% / /dev/root 15G 6.4G 7.3G 47% / devtmpfs 215M 0 215M 0% /dev tmpfs 44M 264K 44M 1% /run tmpfs 5.0M 4.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock tmpfs 88M 0 88M 0% /run/shm /dev/mmcblk0p1 56M 20M 37M 35% /boot

root@raspi73:~# df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on rootfs 30G 14G 15G 50% / /dev/root 30G 14G 15G 50% / devtmpfs 212M 0 212M 0% /dev tmpfs 44M 236K 44M 1% /run tmpfs 5.0M 0 5.0M 0% /run/lock tmpfs 88M 0 88M 0% /run/shm /dev/mmcblk0p1 56M 19M 38M 34% /boot

# uname -a Linux raspi73 3.6.11+ #371 PREEMPT Thu Feb 7 16:31:35 GMT 2013 armv6l GNU/Linux

Other older one is offline now

On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Mar 2022 11:10:40 +1200) it happened snipped-for-privacy@f110.n.z1.fidonet.org (Shaun Buzza) wrote in snipped-for-privacy@f110.n.z1.fidonet.org>:

Easy to change windows with ctrl cursor. No overlapping windows.

Its not that hard actually. For me I am retired, now over 75, so plenty of time, but before that I had the same hobby..

Well there exist probably few that have all options one can dream of, I will leave it to others to show what they know.

Gaming? Last time was packman or someting years ago. Programming and designing [electronics in my case] is more challenging for me as it gives me something you can actually use.

Unless you have good reasons otherwise how about Raspberry Pi OS Lite, which comes in 32 and 64 bit flavours? It's supported by the RPF and is the most well tested path for the Pi.

That's enough to get you going. Then pick a desktop and install what you want for it - there are typically metapackages that pull in enough to get a basic desktop up, but not extra stuff - eg 'lxde' depends on image viewer, terminal and calculator, but heavyweight stuff like LibreOffice is a recommendation not a dependency.

If you want a more basic desktop for VNC purposes, install a standalone window manager like twm, i3 or fvwm - they aren't desktop environments so don't drag in lots of extra stuff. If you want a clock, a terminal or a calculator you'd have to install them separately (unless xclock, xterm and xcalc are good enough for you)

I don't think RaspiOS will do that out of the box, but it can be set up manually later.

Theo

Yes they would, but I'm starting to wonder if you wouldn't be just as well off with using ssh and X11 forwarding to bring terminals, filemanagers et al onto your existing desktop and not run a GUI on the pi at all.

I'm not familiar with DietPi but it seems to be developed by a handful of people. The risk with this kind of project is they eventually stop supporting it and you have to migrate to something else. For this kind of setup, where you're explicitly wanting a desktop (of some kind) I'm not sure that starting with a 'diet' image and then installing a bunch of stuff will give much advantage over just starting with the vanilla Lite image.

aarch64 is faster than aarch32. While the pointers are bigger and you pay some memory overhead for that, you also get better performance.

I can't remember how VNC chooses which desktop environment to start in the session, but there's a ~/.vncstartup file where you can run things.

Alternatively, if you start your VNC desktop on :1 (ie port 5901) you can do, from another machine:

ssh -X pi@raspberrypi export DISPLAY=localhost:1 twm & xterm &

and that should get you a terminal on your VNC with a barebones window manager (assuming the twm package is installed) and you can launch things from there.

Or, as mentioned, just ssh -X and running a local X server to have things on your local display. Upsides and downsides.

Theo

I'm surprised its still going, it was useful 10 yeas ago on a Pi 1B with a 4GB SD card, but these days there is no significant benefit compared to a standard Raspbian build.

Far more hassle than it's worth. A standard Raspbian comes with the lightweight Pixel desktop and VNC out of the box - although its proprietary RealVNC which some of my other stuff wont talk to, so I just replace that with it with x11vnc, and job done.

---druck

MS> I have a pi4 running freebsd (headless) - the server for the family:

Thanks for your input, Mike!

I really don't want to use freebsd. I simply don't have enough experience with it to be comfortable. This is why I said I preferred Debian versions of Linux. I am pretty comfortable working with that, and confident enough that I can do all the things I want to do...

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

Th> > Is it a significant performance gain? Th> Th> 15-30%:

Really? (O_O)

That's significant, all right! I'll have to check that link, and of course some others that I'll be looking for.

Th> A 64 bit OS can run 32 and 64 bit software, yes. A 32 bit OS can't run Th> 64 bit software. To build you'd need to install 32 bit libraries, but on Th> Debian derivatives that's easily done. aarch64 can't mix 32 and 64 bit Th> software within an application, so you have to compile the whole Th> application one way or another.

Erm, yes, well, 'running' and 'compiling' are not the same. I'm going to be releasing my own series of door games in the future, and this is what my questions about compiling are referring to. It would be extremely helpful to still be able to build 32-bit releases for those who are using 32-bit OSes. At least for the Pi, 64-bit just isn't that common yet.

I'm sort of 'future-proofing'...in a very backward way...

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net

On 18/03/2022 02:35, Shaun Buzza wrote: ....

I have a pi4 running freebsd (headless) - the server for the family: runs sendmail, apache, ntp, nfs, etc, etc. Works quite well, if a mite slower than the i386 it's just replaced. No support yet for wifi/blutooth, which I also don't need anyway. Access via vnc or ssh/tmux.

FWIW I think the bsd pf firewall is more flexible than linux's -- but that may just be down to relative familiarity.

(I also have freebsd running on an ancient model B - 256Mb - which is handy as an ethernet bridge to monitor network traffic.)

A 64 bit OS can run 32 and 64 bit software, yes. A 32 bit OS can't run 64 bit software. To build you'd need to install 32 bit libraries, but on Debian derivatives that's easily done. aarch64 can't mix 32 and 64 bit software within an application, so you have to compile the whole application one way or another.

Theo

MS> > Thanks for your input, Mike! MS> >

MS> > I really don't want to use freebsd. I simply don't have enough experienc MS> > with it to be comfortable. MS> MS> That's fine of course. What you're familiar with is often (usually?) the MS> best other things being equal.

Yes, exactly. All other things being equal, I'd prefer 'familiar' more than I would the (potentially) months of re-training.

MS> I suppose I really wanted to put in a MS> word for the BSDs; they often seem to be lost under the myriad of MS> linuxes out there :-)

I don't blame you at all, for that! It's exactly why I bring up Linux any time my less-than-technical friends argue Windows versus Mac!

MS> (BTW, I use linux for all our desktops and MS> laptops: all mint except for an ancient 32-bit lappy. Years back, when MS> looking round to replace XP, BSD desktops just didn't quite hit the MS> mark; linux scraped in :-) )

Doesn't Mint have a 32-bit version? Oh, it seems they stopped at version

I don't want to say that Mint is my favorite Linux, yet. But it's certainly high up on the list, especially with their Xfce version. More specifically, I think 'Debian' is pretty great. This is what Mint, Ubuntu, and a huge list of others (including PiOS), are built on.

Again, it may just come down to familiarity, but I certainly prefer Debian over...say...Arch, or Fedora, or friggin' Caldera/RedHat! (Don't ask)

None of this helps me choose a new OS for my Pi...It's limited to only Debian builds, as far as I'm aware. Hmm...I'm actually not sure about this, now that I think about it...is there any other core distro that supports ARM CPUs? Besides Android, I mean.

I'll look into FreeBSD, and BSD in general, now that you've brought it to my attention. But, you can safely assume that I won't be installing it on this particular Pi. (^_^)

McDoob SysOp, PiBBS pibbs.sytes.net