SMPS design ...

I've been given a number of switchers to look at, by a company that I do other work for. The one that concerns me here, is an open frame type, single

12 volt output at, I would guess, 3 - 4 amps. It appears to be a very simple design, in that the chopper drive circuit is discrete, employing two bipolar transistors as an astable. The output of this is fed pretty much directly to the gate of a single FET. In the drain of the FET, is a single primary winding up to the raw rail from the input bridge.

Across that primary, is a network comprising a 330pF 2 Kv disc ceramic cap, and two 3 watt cement-body resistors, all in series. On every one of the examples sent to me, the two resistors are chalky and very discoloured to the point where you can't read the bands. On some of them, one of the resistors is open. Of the remaining resistors, they all seem to go around

150 ohms, so I'm taking that to be the original value, based on the fact that this type of resistor doesn't usually go low, and some of them have gone open. Make no mistake, these resistors look like they run very hot normally, to the point where the solder on their joints has crystalised, and on some, scorch damage has been done to the print, and the substrate.

Now here's the bit that I am finding puzzling. If you take one where one or both of the resistors has gone open, the supply works just fine. Loaded up to a couple of amps, it runs cool and the regulation is good. The switching FET is barely breaking a sweat, as you would expect. So I went ahead and replaced the resistors with a pair of 150 ohm 3 watt types that look pretty much identical to the originals - even down to the blue body colour. The cap checks ok for value and leakage. With the resistors in place, the supply still works just fine, except that it now runs pretty hot, even when unloaded. The FET is a lot hotter than it was before. The resistors get well hot, as I was expecting, given the condition of the originals, but with the supply loaded up to a couple of amps, they get very hot, and the FET becomes uncomfortably hot as well.

As far as I can make out, doing some on-line reading about SMPS design, this network across the transformer primary, is a simple snubber (as opposed to a clamp or combination clamp and snubber as is also sometimes found in this position). Texts suggest that its purpose is to limit the level of voltage spikes at the switching point, to keep the switching device operating within its SOA and reduce dissipation, which seems a fair enough comment. However, quite the reverse appears to be true. The whole supply seems a lot happier with that network 'not there' as it effectively is, when the resistors are open.

So has anyone got any good thoughts as to what is going on here ? I've done a great deal of repairs to switchers over the years, and am well versed with the principles of operation and repair, but I freely admit that I am not a designer in this field, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to whether it's just generally a poor design, or whether there's something else wrong that I'm missing. As those components were originally designed in, and are clearly faulty now, they need to be replaced, but the fact that the supply seems to run less efficiently when they are in place, feels altogether counter-intuitive

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily
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  1. A what frequency is the SMPS supply running?
  2. Look at the xformer or inductor with a loosly coupled pickup, and see if there is any RF or spurious oscillations happening. 330PF at perhaps 40KHz is 12K ohms, which isn't going to conduct enough current to get the 150 ohm resistor even slightly warm. However, 330pf at some higher RF frequency just might do the trick.
  3. The design sounds like it might be belching some switching noise back out the power line as conducted EMI/RFI. The 330pf and 150 ohm resistor networks seem like they're there to reduce this EMI to regulatory limits.

Hint: The most efficient switching power supply, is full of fast rise time waveforms, and is therefore also an EMI/RFI noisy supply.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

"Arfa Daily"

** What sort of SMPS is this ??

One that puts out regulated DC ???

Or is it for driving 12V halogen lights with raw high frequency energy.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

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What happens if you double the R and halve the C ?

Reply to
N_Cook

"Nutcase Kook"

** The C gets jealous - silly .............

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"Arfa Daily" schreef in bericht news:p04nq.10308$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe13.ams...

Makes me think of the old audio tube output amplifiers. The Miller capacitor could make them yell like an HF-transmiter. Usually a stop resistor in the grid circuit prevented this oscillation. So adding (or increasing) the resistance in the gate circuit may solve the problem.

petrus bitbyter

Reply to
petrus bitbyter

Hi Arfa,

sorry to hijack the thread, but you don't have any experience with Wharfedale SMPS's do you? The ones in the powered subs (Titan and EVP series). Maybe you know likely failure points?

I'm rubbish at SMPS repair, can't stand the things, but its £100 to have Wharfedale repair it (who just put in another PCB). This one does tick into life but immediately shuts down and stays that way.

Cheers,

Gareth.

Reply to
Gareth Magennis

All the snubbers of this type I've seen were a fast diode feeding the tops of the flyback pulses to a capacitor that was shunted by a bleed resistor - if the diode in such a snubber were to fail S/C I would expect the chopper transistor to warm up a bit.

Reply to
Ian Field

---snip--- (hint! :-) )

Some ancient neurons in my brain stirred. I think you mean Miller capacitance? Not an external component but the effective capacitance at the grid of a valve (or gate of a FET) due to the actual capacitance between grid (gate) and anode within the device amplified by the voltage gain of the circuit it forms.

formatting link

--
John Stumbles

I don't want to be part of a club that would have someone like me as a 
member.
Reply to
John Stumbles

Sure. I should have written capacitance to make things more clear. This capacitance was - and still is - made up by the grid and the anode of the tube, especially in triodes. This *is* a capacitor as it consists of to conductors separated by an insulator. Even though the remedy - a stop resistor in the grid circuit - was known, it was sometimes left out for cost reduction. It is known that many FETs act in the same way triodes do.

There are other things that can make an audio amplifier oscillate. Last year I got a modern tube amplifier. The ultra linear amplifier oscillated due to too low a resistance in the screen grid circuit.

Modern semiconducters suffer from even more capacitances then the old tubes. I once was told that SMPS-designers consumate their components not by the number but by the bucket as heavy duty switchers oscillate very easily and than blow themselfs.

petrus bitbyter

Reply to
petrus bitbyter

No, it's regulated DC. It is used in a vending machine

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

"Arfa Daily"

** With just two transistors and one mosfet ?

That is what you have told us.

And SFA else.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Don't know. However, these are a commercial item that I am repairing for a company, and as they are, is as they were designed, and I guess the company that wants me to mend them, would want them left as designed and approved.

As it happens, today I got back to doing some more work on them, and this time, the situation didn't seem half as bad, which I also can't figure. I used the same mains isolation transformer to run them, and exactly the same load - a couple of low voltage halogen lamps totaling 40 watts. Today, the FET got no hotter under these conditions, than it did with no load. In fact, it stayed quite cool. Replacement resistors still ran hot, as I'm sure that they must be expected to, given that they are rated at 3 watts each, but not so hot that you would feel uncomfortable about them over dissipating. This has left me a bit non-plussed. Something must be different between what I was doing Monday, and what I did today, but I can't figure what.

As to them generating high levels of RF, there is certainly no evidence on a 'scope, of any RF on the switching waveform. There are a couple of radios on in the workshop all the time, one of which is an HF radio usually on 10 metres, and the other is a weather sat VHF one. Neither showed any signs of picking up anything nasty whilst any of the supplies was running.

The nominal switching frequency is around 50 kHz but on the rising edge, there is a very tall very narrow spike when the resistors are burnt out. When they are replaced, the spike is still there, but quite a lot smaller, so I guess that the purpose of the network is to reduce the level of that spike to get it down within the ratings of the switching FET. Because the spike is very fast and narrow, I guess that the 330pF will have a much smaller Xc to that component of the waveform.

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

According to the write-ups, that is a combinational snubber and clamping circuit, Some designs have just a snubber - like the one I'm working on here - some have just clamping diodes, and some have a network of R, C and D, as you say.

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

You shouldn't take things quite so literally, Phil. I was talking about the primary side only when I said that, but yes, it pretty much has a pair of small TO92 transistors, and a TO220 mosfet. Obviously, it also has input filtering, a bridge, made of 4 discrete diodes, a main filter cap, and assorted R and C to make those two little transistors into an oscillator. About 20 components altogether. The secondary side is exactly like any other fixed voltage typical design, and there is, of course, a perfectly normal 6 pin opto for regulation feedback. Better ?

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

"Arfa Daily"

** All that needed to be in the first post, plus the operating frequency.

No it seems the whole story was BS anyhow.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

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Are the 330pF multilayer ceramic that could have metalisation creep / cracks/ unreliable /leaky from humidity. I would replace them with a different brand/construction

Reply to
N_Cook

"Arfa Daily" wrote in news:JKKnq.3161$V snipped-for-privacy@newsfe06.ams:

I've been wondering about how the regulating feedback loop works. How does it modify the multivibrator's output?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Reply to
Jim Yanik

Well, actually, it didn't, as it was irrelevant to the situation. How the mosfet receives its drive is neither here nor there in regards to what's going on at its drain. As long as it has a pulse width modulated 'square' wave of sufficient amplitude to fully drive the gate, how that waveform is produced is of no consequence. It actually looks, on this supply, pretty much exactly the same as the drive waveform on some of the others that the company have sent, and which use a dedicated PWM chip to produce the drive. As to the operating frequency, yes, I probably should have stated this, but most supplies of this sort of size, operate between 40 kHz and 80 KHz, as would be understood by anyone who works with them regularly.

And why do you think it's all bullshit ? Do you think that I just sit here, and think to myself "Hmmm. I wonder what dumb-arsed story I can come up with to start a thread with ?" No, of course not. It's just you, as ever, spoiling for a fight. Well listen up pal. If you've got anything interesting to add, as you sometimes actually do, then go ahead and say it. Otherwise, no one is interested in *your* bullshit. Ok ?

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

Don't know, Jim. I don't have any schematics for it, as is ever the case, and I have not at this point bothered to trace out the circuit in that area, as none of the examples that were sent to me, had problems in that area. However, I don't suppose it would be too difficult to patch the transistor side of the opto into the CR network on one side of the multivibrator. It would just be the equivalent of putting a pot in there. If I get time tomorrow, I'll have a look, and see if I can figure how that bit is hooked up. Probably no more than 10 or so components in that area.

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

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