Q: technical description of FLIR

I know this is a GREAT site for thinkers and tinkerers, so let me ask here. I haven't seen much description about the FLIR device. A typical web search yeilds companies that market it, but nothing relevant to the transducer or electronics involved. It seems to be a big secret....almost. I was wondering how different it is from a regular ccd camera (excepting the transducer device) and what the "ccd-like" chip really is. Also, is the nm sensitivity adjustable, or the psuedo-color mapping addressable for display?

Thanks..........Les KA9GLW

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les
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Andy responds:

I am familiar with some of the military Forward Looking Infra Red systems\ and they are much much much more sophisticated, typically, than the simple CCD cameras with the IR LEDs mounted around them. The one in the F16, for instance, has cooling pumps and can see stuff 20 miles away at midnite..... On the other hand, I have a little $20 black and white camera that can see a couple feet with an LED illuminator.....

So, the range of complexity is mind boggling..... The night vision scopes for the military don't use cooling and are similar to the ones you buy in sporting good stores, only they cost 100 times as much......

However, the ones using the cheap CCD chips are all low performance. The really good ones are still classified...... You can go to terraserver or one of the weather radar sites and see the satellite photos , some of which are infrared .. That's pretty good stuff, but not even close to what some military stuff can do........

Anyway, I worked with them a bunch at Raytheon, before I retired.

Andy

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Andy

I'm interested in the variety that are used in surveillance typically as they seem rugged and probably not in the classified arena. I have an IR scope, since I experiment with IR photography and other optics. It does basically what my Sony DVcam does with (IR) ambient illumination, which is basically amazing. (our eyes are sooooo inadequate) But, I have talked to a fireman (friend) and they have unit that respond to the 8-10 nm band which affords finding victims. I don't know if this technology is classified, but I'm very curious to read more about the hardware operation (not the cooled versions) Are we talking Peltier cooling or liquid gas?

I'm not interested in military apps. I'd be happy to see what I could do with it in the medical field.

Les KA9GLW

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les

postscript

I'm curious about the imagery as I 'd like to see what this does with a blackbody radiator as a vascular bed, and not one that's dependent on external IR illumination that's of a shorter bandwidth. Les

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les

Suggestion: look around for an old used IR spectrophotometer. Even the cheapest IR units may have all the usefull parts in there for looking in the middle IR band between 2.5 and 16 micron. Have fun!

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Do Little2

"les" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:

There are cooled imagers and uncooled thermal imagers. (that's the distinction between "IR" and thermal imagers;wavelength."IR" covers 850-12000nm,but "thermal" imagers use long-wave IR,8-12um)

IIRC,Raytheon makes an uncooled one at "relatively" low cost for fire and emergency workers. It's based on a bolometer array,not a CCD or CMOS sensor.

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Jim Yanik

I have the older Argus one used by the fire department. Closest thing to a description that I've found says that it's a vidicon with a coating that emits electrons when stimulated by IR. Apparently this technology was short-lived and soon replaced by solid state versions. It's kinda cool to see your footprints in the carpet as you walk across it. And you can sure see the heat leaks in your house.

Problem is that it's no good closer than about 8 feet. If I could get my hands on a lens that would let me look at circuit boards in operation, I'd be a happy camper. IR imagers make great short finders. mike

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mike

I do have an old IR spectrophotometer that uses a flame to volitolize the specimen and chart the emission. That's useful to discriminate relative spectral emissions and analyze the chemical components. What I need is an imaging system akin to the FLIR.

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les

Jim...good, now I'm getting some useful info. This bolometer, which I've read about in astronomy articles is used for single-point detection. How is this device structured to deliver an image ? The Raytheon imager must "scan" somehow. This is why, in my mind, it appears more similar to a CCD in function. Please fill me in how this bolometer is adapted. And , yes, I'm looking at the 8-12um bandwidth for my project. Is the bolometer array and driving ICs on the market as components?

Les KA9GLW

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les

Mike....that is a really neat device. I'd find that interesting too. As you mentioned, it could be useful in novel things, or in determining where to beef up the home insulation. Last winter I had this very thought as my gas bills rose......

Depending on the array used (this is what I keep asking about since I don't know if the device is a parallel array or serial meaning a single lens ) it could be a matter of finding an accesory lens to "correct" the focal point, or extending the lens from the body of the device akin to microphotography. Problems are stabilizing the lens, and a shallow depth of field, plus loss of illumination...making the scope less sensitive. I'd go for an accessory lens, for cost and flexibility. The added complication is the refractive index of glass lenses in the subterranean world is different and focusing would require trail-and-error to compensate for this by extending the focal plane forward of the normal spectrum. If glass isn't useful at this frequency, perhaps quartz is used. I'm not sure what optics are down there. I'm familiar with upper band IR, but haven't had experience with the other stuff.

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les

"les" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:

It is an 2-D ARRAY of individual bolometer devices scaled to the proper size for the intended frequencies(8-12um),and addressed the same as any CMOS or CCD array.

No,it's a staring array lie a video camera sensor(CCD chip)

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Jim Yanik

"les" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:

From Googling "handheld low cost thermal imager"

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there's a lot more,go look for yourself.

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Jim Yanik

Glass is useful. I think the lenses are made of Selenium. And they ain't cheap enough to experiment with. mike

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mike

My bad, lenses are Germainum. Same diff. mike

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mike

GERMANIUM ? The same stuff they dope solid-state components with? How interesting.....I wonder if they even appear like lenses in normal light... This reminds me how microwave and x-rays can be focused by elaborate means using "lenses" as well. If I see a surplus outfit for germanium lenses, I'll know what that's all about now. Also, I'll see if I can pass the source along to you.

BTW, how lucky for you to find this Argus. Did you get it at an auction at the firehouse? I know they have them at rare times. Did it cost you an arm?

Reply to
les

Current (old and new) spectrophotometers never use a flame as an IR source, it probably is an UV or VIS-able unit. Or it could even be an Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer.

Reply to
Do Little2

I traded it for a $1 HP15C calculator at a ham radio swap meet. Probably could have gotten $150 for the calculator on ebay tho. Cool toy, but didn't take long to get bored with it. mike

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mike

You are correct.. It's an A.A. Spectrophotometer Model 1000 by Varian Techtron. Did you have a question about it?

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les

Just a suggestion, if you ever scrap it, it maybe a good idea to keep the hollow cathode tube, grating and detector. If you look around at the below link (one line) than you'll find lots of info regarding IR units/components.

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Have fun!

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