Is it really that tough out there ? FIRED !

Have read it many, many times. The "right" to form a union is not specified, and because it may infringe on the rights of others, cannot be assumed to be "protected" without more specific enumeration of what that right might be. The right to speech and the right to assemble peaceably are enumerated rights, but this does not mean that the coersive practices of many unions are any more protected than the coersive practices of employers. Saying that a "right" is guaranteed by the BOR just because it is not enumerated assumes a lot and is a lazy debate tactic.

Leonard

And the non-union employees have the right to reject your organization, right?

Leonard

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Then you obviously haven't been paying attention.

The BOR explicitly states that non-enumerated rights -- states' and individual -- are not disparaged. The BOR protects rights -- it does not enumerate or proscribe them.

The right to form associations -- political or otherwise -- is a right that is inherent in democracy, and essential to it.

And please learn to spell coercive.

Oh yeah, try to get on at a "union shop" and not join the union. That usually breaks some agreement that the union has coerced the employer into agreeing to.

Jim

Ah, the spelling correction. You can tell a person is grasping at straws when they have to point out some little spelling error. The BOR still doesn't give you or any group the right to blackmail a company.

Jim

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I don't see forcing an non-human entity to behave in a "moral" fashion as blackmail.

Yes, it is. Obviously, in the situation you outlined, the employee is not a (union) represented employee, so you will deal with the employee as you wish. Had the employee been a union employee, the situation would never occur, as he/she cannot bargain individually with you, nor you with him/her.

And I guess somehow the union is now the moral compass of the world. If the company is so immoral, quit and start a more moral company. I guess it comes down to, if you really think blackmail is moral just because YOU like the end result, you are the immoral one.

Jim

OK, so what is the difference? So, the union dude comes in and says the lug nut tighteners want another $50/wk and better medical benefits, and I say Sorry, there is no budget for that and the machine tightens the lugs nuts all they do is hold the machine and I don't feel they deserve $50 more a week and you say fine then we aren't coming back to work until you feel like the job is worth that. So, if I now fire all the lug nut tighteners and hire people that are willing to work for those wages, what is the difference and the problem, other than the number of people?

Jim

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I was a troubleshooter, a very highly respected position at a union shop in The Bronx many years ago. We worked on electronic countermeasures equipment for the Air Force. I really enjoyed my job and I felt that I was doing something important for my country. One day the shop steward came over to me and told me that I was doing too much work. It seemed that fifteen power supplies a day was too much. I was told that the third shift guy was only turning out eight. I told the man that "obviously the third shift guy is incompetent and probably should not be a troubleshooter". The steward walked away from me and I thought that was the end of it until the "goon" showed up. It seemed that "they" knew where I lived, they knew who my girlfriend was, what kind of cars we drove and as he so aptly put it, " we wouldn't want you to do something that you might regret". Luckily I had a good relationship with my boss and I told him about this and he took me off production and put me on repairs, an area not time studied. I was off the hook, but the second shift guy when he was similarly approached told them to go pound sand. His car wound up with a mysterious case of diabetes on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway one night on the way home from work. I loved my job but the Union was an ever present obstacle. One could never excell with making the monkeys look bad. I left that company because of it. That was 32 years ago and I'm quite certain the inmates are still running the asylum. I've run my own business for the past 24 years and I would never go back. Just my two cents. Lenny

james, you are wasting your time trying to educate this anonymous coward. His mind is closed tighter than Jack Benny's vault, and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. He reads what he wants to see in whatever you write,. not what you wrote.

I'm out of date on the question of Open Shop and Closed Shop.

You may be FOS. I believe it is the employer who coerces the Union to accept an Open Shop.

Who is being blackmailed and specifically how? Or is this just more mud slinging?

No, as a supervisor or manager of a union workforce you would know better than to say that to the union dude, so the rest of what you say is totally irrelevant.

Here's how it would go: So, the union dude comes in and says the lug nut tighteners want another $50/wk and better medical benefits, and I say to him, sorry, you know these are bargaining issues. Take this up with your Union Steward and if she/he wants to, they can take it to your bargaining team for next time the contract is negotiated.

At that point the Steward *will* support the management reply and that will be the end of it until the next bargaining session prior to the contract running out.

well, thanks for confirming what i had suspected. It's precisely that sort of view of people which has laid the groundwork for tyranny throughout history!

..which i didn't, I merely pointed out that not everyone is tech- savvy, and not necessarily through any fault of their own.

So, you ran away. Real man-style, then. Truth is, you suffered at the hands of your employer who did what he wanted with no regard for you, but you're too proud to admit it.

So what does this prove? that your country is up for sale and the workers have no defence. Nice place to live, I'm sure.....

well thanks once more for another torrent of abuse. A clear sign of someone who knows their arguments are shaky and resorts to name calling. Clearly you're just a sad old man, sat behind the computer with nothing better to do. I actually feel a bit sorry for you.

(sigh)...Once more you don't seem to grasp the idea that outsourcing production to the third world to cut costs (or threatening to in order to make the employees work for shit money, precarious contracts and worse conditions) is not ethical behaviour. It's an example of everything that is wrong with corporate ideology.

-B

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I'm inclined to agree/disagree with all of you. Sony isn't doing too well at the moment, but the company used to do pretty well with a mix of pricey -- and often innovative -- products, with more modestly priced items. Unlike Polaroid, Sony has not yet ruined its good name. Sony got its reputation for the perceived quality of its products.

Cheap items aren't always junk, and cheap items don't necessarily drive out more-expensive items. People are somewhat (but only somewhat) more aware than you might think. Back around March I was wandering through Fry's and noticed the latest Sony Bravia LCD. My jaw dropped. (I was sorely tempted to buy it.) A day later one of the review mags came, frothing at the mouth over this model.

I love my AIBO like.no.other thing I've ever owned.

I don't think they ever had it. People are more influenced by advertising than careful thought.

I bought a Chinese jukebox -- the iRiver HP-120 -- after careful research, and have had no reason to complain. At the time I bought it, it was a much better product than any of the iPods. As an audio-only player, it still is.

Were you married at the time? Having dependents can greatly reduce your freedom to make a decision.

They used to look around more than they do today. You see people walk down the isle, just looking at prices, then grabbing a box with the lowest price.

There is some decent imported equipment, but the majority of it is junk. You did your research, rather than impulse buy. Most people don't. :)

No. that station bragged that it was built under budget, and I already knew they had lost three chief engineers because the way the place was built, and the station only willing to pay a 40 hour per week salary, while expecting you to be available 24/7.